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  1. PenTesting
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    17 Nov '22 21:32
    @mchill said
    Therefore to forgive even without that forgiveness being requested, will always benefit the forgiver.


    I don't think so. If someone is about to be executed with a gun, forgiving the executioner is not going to "benefit" the guy with the bullet in his skull.
    Jesus said to forgive so that you will in return get forgiveness from God. So it benefits the forgiver who will reap the rewards.
  2. PenTesting
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    16 Nov '22 13:161 edit
    @kellyjay said
    The only ones who are justified are redeemed by Christ will receive eternal life. You are suggesting God forgives and still withholds eternal life from those He justified?
    I am not suggesting... I am saying what the bible says. You are providing your opinion which is fine but it conflicts with the bible.

    Here is Paul :
    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:18 KJV)
    The point - All people are justified by the death of Christ. It is the free gift of God.

    Here Paul is speaking of the fate of those who are justified, forgiven, redeemed, born-again Christian Saints in Christ who have the gift of the Holy Spirit:
    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
    The point he made here - YES, justified, forgiven and redeemed, Christian Saints who fall away, and revert to a life of sin will not receive eternal life.

    Here it is again, Paul addresses Christian Saints in Galatia:
    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 KJV)
    Christians who live a life of sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God

    Its all over the bible. Eternal life is not free. It requires work and faith, and a special lifestyle of righteousness.
  3. PenTesting
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    16 Nov '22 12:18
    @kellyjay said
    Yes, abide in Christ, believe in the One the Father sent, the work was done by Jesus
    Christ, I cannot add to that I can only take what God has given as a gift for His own
    glory and walk in it.

    When Jesus was asked what work we were to do, He said,

    John 6:27-29
    English Standard Version
    Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal ...[text shortened]... s of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
    Whatever. Stop rambling.

    One is free, the other is not.
    Justification through Christ is free.
    Eternal life is not.

    Churches have it wrong.
  4. PenTesting
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    16 Nov '22 11:55
    @kellyjay said
    Do you earn any gift, if you have to work for it, is it a gift?
    The gift of eternal life in the Kingdom of God requires that you do certain things.

    The free gift of justification through Christ requires nothing. Paul said it came upon all men. Hence it is free. Just as the condemnation through Adams sin came upon all men the same way the justification by Christ came upon all men.

    You figure out the rest, and phrase it as you wish.

    One is free and is for all
    One is not free and requires that you do certain things.
  5. PenTesting
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    16 Nov '22 11:302 edits
    @kellyjay said
    It is a gift, all gifts are not earned, God did not have to save us, but He made a way
    for us to be redeemed by Christ. You do believe the book of Romans is from God
    correct?
    Stop asking stupid questions.

    Paul refers to a free gift in Romans 5, and this is the sacrifice of Christ, which justified ALL MEN.

    Paul also referred to the gift of God which is eternal life.

    They are two different things. One is the death of Christ which removed the curse of the sin of Adam from all men. The second is the gift of eternal life which all men will not receive even though they are justified by the death of Christ

    The first is free and requires nothing
    The second requires righteousness and good works.
  6. PenTesting
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    15 Nov '22 20:27
    @kellyjay said
    Cherry picking again are you, we have the right to become children of God through Christ. There are sheep and goats, wheat and tares, those whom Jesus says, “Depart from me I never knew you.” With out exception everyone may come to God through Jesus Christ, the worst of us can be saved because of Jesus, outside of Christ no.
    That is not a free gift.
  7. PenTesting
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    15 Nov '22 14:41
    @kellyjay said
    Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Rom_5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto jus ...[text shortened]... ion in Christ to many, those abiding
    in Christ Jesus there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.
    Clearly you are rambling. Paul in Romans 5:18 says

    Just as how the sin of Adam condemned ALL MEN, the sacrifice of Christ justified ALL men to life.

    Its very simple.
  8. PenTesting
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    14 Nov '22 18:25
    @kellyjay said
    It is amazing how you can quote and refer to the very point you deny. Do you say that the book of Romans is of man, not God?
    Learn to make your point in simple clear language.

    Try again.
  9. PenTesting
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    14 Nov '22 18:02
    @josephw said
    You make two mistakes.

    First, you misunderstood kellyjay. He is not saying grace is earned by obedience.

    Second, the "free gift" is eternal life, not grace. Grace was purchased at an unimaginable cost, and is given freely to those that through faith believe in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice on the cross, his death, burial and literal resurrection.

    It says nowhere in the Bible that grace is a "free gift".
    Im quite aware of your church doctrine. The expression 'free gift' appears 3 times in the bible and all are in Romans 5 :

    Rom_5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Rom_5:16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

    Rom_5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


    It is clear that the free gift of God is the sacrifice of Christ for the sins of all mankind. Contrary to what you claim eternal life is never once referred to as a 'free gift'. It is referred to as a gift of God, never is it referred to as free.
  10. PenTesting
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    14 Nov '22 15:15
    @kellyjay said
    Someone who is only partially obedient is disobedient, just as there are no shades or of truth, something is true or not, obedience is or isn't as well. We need God's grace and mercy, our efforts will never be enough.
    The Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN.

    For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Titus 2:11 KJV)

    There is nothing man can do to get this Grace. This Grace of God is a free gift, which is given to all people from Adam to the end of time.

    But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:15-18 KJV)

    All men are justified by the death of Christ ... thats the Grace of God.

    So your doctrine that there is something you have to do or had to do to get Gods Grace, or the doctrine that only Christians or those professing faith or belief get Gods Grace, are false doctrines.
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