Need to do some pecking.
@philokalia saidYou don't speak about anything in a "grand way", so we are not in danger of mistaking your wafflely jazz-handed blusterings in this particular thread as being anything other than the usual, you.
But I have to heavily preface this: I am not a theologian and not qualified to speak on this in any grand way.
@philokalia saidSo where Revelation says that the endless suffering is occurring in the "presence of the Lamb", it is not meant to be taken literally?
[quote] Revelation 14:9-10 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and o ...[text shortened]... to heavily preface this: I am not a theologian and not qualified to speak on this in any grand way.
@philokalia saidNever-mind all that bluster about free will, please address the OP.
Oh no, people are not created destined for hell.
People are created with free wills, and the desire is for all to come to Christ, but there is not interference with the free will of another.
Is the fact that some will go to hell foreknown? Yes.
But it is what is deserved for their choices. They were not created for that end, but chose that path.
@philokalia saidSo you agree that the concept of eternal suffering is in fact pointless and without reason?
It would not be pointless in terms of it being reasonless, but it could potentially be pointless in terms of not having an end goal beyond the act that is occurring.
@philokalia saidYou did not make any points. You asserted that i had made a mistake, I haven't.
You did not confront any of my points but merely asked questions based off of the same assumptions you started this thread with.
@philokalia saidWhat is the “reason” for torturing people for eternity after they die, in a place no one can see from the here-and-now?
Your mistake is the assumption that everything in existence that comes from God is solely to bring people to Christ.
Where did you come up with that one?
The question of what the "point" of eternal suffering is is also perhaps wrong. Some things have reasons, but they do not have points because they are not meant to lead to some final goal.
...[text shortened]... as to be understood that Hell is not created by God, but rather, it is the result of rejecting God.
@kellyjay saidSupernaturally keeping someone alive and burning them for eternity is an act of unspeakable cruelty and is impossible to justify especially for simply not being a Christian when one dies.
You think in a kingdom without time, a time limit should be placed on a punishment? You think God isn't being fair when He justifies us SINNERS for life eternal who accept His grace? If you think that is fair, why would it be unfair for God to show His wrath the same way for eternity?
@kellyjay saidNo idea, but my question to you was:
It will not be the history of the universe, there will be eternity with God in His Kingdom, and those kept out due to their sins. You think there will be a past, present, and future in the eternal kingdom?
@rookie54 saidNo butter!
toast and jam, hot coffee, perhaps a bagel,
a party in my pjs!