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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    28 Oct '18 14:00
    Not that I've watched new Simpsons episodes in years seeing how terrible that show got, but still... sensitive snowflakes making the world more politically correct day by day.

    I'm so glad I won't get to experience what the world is going to be like 60 years from now.

    https://www.nme.com/news/tv/simpsons-confirm-apu-leave-2394238
  2. Joined
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    28 Oct '18 14:051 edit
    @great-king-rat said
    Not that I've watched new Simpsons episodes in years seeing how terrible that show got, but still... sensitive snowflakes making the world more politically correct day by day.

    I'm so glad I won't get to experience what the world is going to be like 60 years from now.

    https://www.nme.com/news/tv/simpsons-confirm-apu-leave-2394238
    You still have South Park that are not unfunny melting snow flakes.

    Then again, making fun of Mohammad is a no, no there despite targeting pretty much everyone else.

    It's like Groucho Marx once said, "If you are unable to laugh at yourself, I will be more than happy to do it for you"

    Loved that guy!
  3. Standard membersh76
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    28 Oct '18 15:05
    @great-king-rat said
    Not that I've watched new Simpsons episodes in years seeing how terrible that show got, but still... sensitive snowflakes making the world more politically correct day by day.

    I'm so glad I won't get to experience what the world is going to be like 60 years from now.

    https://www.nme.com/news/tv/simpsons-confirm-apu-leave-2394238
    The Simpsons' dominant gag is the lampooning of a fat, dumb clueless white guy who is every fat, dumb clueless white guy stereotype in the book.

    But Apu, who's probably the most alert, morally upstanding, aware and intelligent character on the show has to be written out because... offense.

    Whatever. I'm passed being surprised.
  4. Joined
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    28 Oct '18 15:091 edit
    @sh76 said
    The Simpsons' dominant gag is the lampooning of a fat, dumb clueless white guy who is every fat, dumb clueless white guy stereotype in the book.

    But Apu, who's probably the most alert, morally upstanding, aware and intelligent character on the show has to be written out because... offense.

    Whatever. I'm passed being surprised.
    They are all a lampoon.

    Take Ned, for example, the token Christian.

    My favorite was when he was pointing to something while driving as he began to swerve. Then he was pulled over by the police, another inept buffoon white guy, that made him do a test to see if he was drunk. Then you see the church bus drive by full of his congregation who were wide eyed and in disbelief. at him being taken for a drunk driver.

    The next Sunday message was "The thing that Ned did".

    Funny stuff.
  5. Standard membervivify
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    28 Oct '18 15:39
    @sh76 said
    The Simpsons' dominant gag is the lampooning of a fat, dumb clueless white guy who is every fat, dumb clueless white guy stereotype in the book.

    But Apu, who's probably the most alert, morally upstanding, aware and intelligent character on the show has to be written out because... offense.

    Whatever. I'm passed being surprised.
    The "fat dumb clueless guy" isn't a racial stereotype of whites; it's just a trope that just happens to depict a white guy in this case. Trailer parks or the toothless hillbilly are stereotypes of whites, but not the ones you mentioned.

    For all of Apu's "morally upstanding" traits, he's still a stereotype of mid-east or south-Asian people running a convenience store. Is it a terrible stereotype? As an outsider, I don't think so. But I'm not the one to decide that.

    Society is all about evolving. Ever notice the only ones who complain about change those who aren't oppressed? It's usually whites complaining about not being able to wear blackface, or men who complain about not being to cat-call women. After all, what harm is there in complimenting a woman's butt at work? That's showing body positivity, right?

    Getting a laugh should never be more important than respecting people. There are plenty of other ways to be entertained that don't involve disparaging others.
  6. Standard membervivify
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    28 Oct '18 15:44
    @whodey said
    They are all a lampoon.

    Take Ned, for example, the token Christian.

    My favorite was when he was pointing to something while driving as he began to swerve. Then he was pulled over by the police, another inept buffoon white guy, that made him do a test to see if he was drunk. Then you see the church bus drive by full of his congregation who were wide eyed and in disbelie ...[text shortened]... g taken for a drunk driver.

    The next Sunday message was "The thing that Ned did".

    Funny stuff.
    You bring up a good point: It's okay to mock Christians, but not Muslims or faiths associated with non-whites. That's because white Christians aren't an oppressed group; they're usually the oppressors.

    But still. If it's wrong to disparage people of one faith, that should be universally applied. If it's wrong to mock women for their looks, it should be just as wrong to mock men for their looks. If it's wrong to mock Hillary's hair style, so too for Trump.
  7. Joined
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    28 Oct '18 16:08
    @vivify said
    The "fat dumb clueless guy" isn't a racial stereotype of whites; it's just a trope that just happens to depict a white guy in this case. Trailer parks or the toothless hillbilly are stereotypes of whites, but not the ones you mentioned.

    For all of Apu's "morally upstanding" traits, he's still a stereotype of mid-east or south-Asian people running a convenience store. I ...[text shortened]... ing people. There are plenty of other ways to be entertained that don't involve disparaging others.
    I agree with you that white guys have it fairly easy when it comes to stereotyping. I suppose the group is just too large for that.

    Still, there exist plenty of "white-ish" stereotypes. The humourless German, the dentally challenged Englishman, the stingy Dutchman. Think I feel even remotely upset because of the phrase "going Dutch"? Hell nah.

    We need to be able to laugh at each other and ourselves, and stereotyping to some degree is an important part of that.

    Erasing everything that might possibly offend somebody is a terrible way forward.

    Are we going to have all South Park episodes burned because of their frequent Jew jokes? What about Family Guy. More Jew jokes than cut-aways in that show.

    What about the Scotsman Groundskeeper Willy from The Simpsons? How close would you say we are to somebody demanding to remove him because of stereotyping?

    How about jokes about dumb blondes? And mother-in-laws? Is society evolving in such a way that those jokes will soon be banned? Will humour on tv soon have the bite of "Growing Pains", devoid of any kind of edgy-ness, lest we might offend someone?

    And going back to Apu, while he is a stereotype, he is based to a degree on reality, which is what stereotypes often are. I suppose we should look away from reality, just like we shouldn't see a person's skin colour.

    From now on, there are no longer "south-Asian people running a convenience store".
  8. Standard membersh76
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    28 Oct '18 16:56
    @great-king-rat said
    I agree with you that white guys have it fairly easy when it comes to stereotyping. I suppose the group is just too large for that.

    Still, there exist plenty of "white-ish" stereotypes. The humourless German, the dentally challenged Englishman, the stingy Dutchman. Think I feel even remotely upset because of the phrase "going Dutch"? Hell nah.

    We need to be able ...[text shortened]... s skin colour.

    From now on, there are no longer "south-Asian people running a convenience store".
    === Will humour on tv soon have the bite of "Growing Pains", devoid of any kind of edgy-ness, lest we might offend someone? ===

    On network TV, we're already there. I've given up on network sitcoms.
  9. Standard membersh76
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    28 Oct '18 16:59
    @vivify said
    The "fat dumb clueless guy" isn't a racial stereotype of whites; it's just a trope that just happens to depict a white guy in this case. Trailer parks or the toothless hillbilly are stereotypes of whites, but not the ones you mentioned.

    For all of Apu's "morally upstanding" traits, he's still a stereotype of mid-east or south-Asian people running a convenience store. I ...[text shortened]... ing people. There are plenty of other ways to be entertained that don't involve disparaging others.
    they have the toothless hillbilly too, BTW, and I've never seen any agitation to get him removed.

    I don't watch network shows much anymore, but from when I used to watch the Simpsons, I remember Apu as being one of the most astute characters in the show when they did feature him. they did one where he was the most desirable bachelor. Then they had him have a bunch of kids and still run his business and his family efficiently.

    Is he a stereotype? Sure. Every character on that show is.

    Offensive? Give me a break.
  10. Standard membervivify
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    28 Oct '18 17:01
    @great-king-rat said
    I agree with you that white guys have it fairly easy when it comes to stereotyping. I suppose the group is just too large for that.

    Still, there exist plenty of "white-ish" stereotypes. The humourless German, the dentally challenged Englishman, the stingy Dutchman. Think I feel even remotely upset because of the phrase "going Dutch"? Hell nah.

    We need to be able ...[text shortened]... s skin colour.

    From now on, there are no longer "south-Asian people running a convenience store".
    Everything's context.

    Whites are in the unique position of having oppressed every group on earth. That, understandably, makes it much more of an issue when whites mock another race, like the white creators of the Simpsons did. Even if the intention is just to "make fun of ourselves", it's a lot harder to take from people who have dominated the world through oppression.

    So when whites, who've done a smashing job of oppressing blacks, ask "why can't I put on blackface", that makes Megyn Kelly's backlash easier to understand, as well as the Apu stereotype.

    You mentioned making fun of blondes, Germans, the English, and the Dutch. If white people want to make fun of themselves, that's fine. Just remember that the purpose of "making fun of ourselves" is too improve the human condition. If blondes or the Dutch or any other group of whites are offended by jokes mocking them, whites should contribute to bettering society by understanding those wishes and accordingly.

    People are more important than jokes.
  11. Standard membervivify
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    28 Oct '18 17:27
    @sh76 said
    they have the toothless hillbilly too, BTW, and I've never seen any agitation to get him removed.

    I don't watch network shows much anymore, but from when I used to watch the Simpsons, I remember Apu as being one of the most astute characters in the show when they did feature him. they did one where he was the most desirable bachelor. Then they had him have a bunch of kids an ...[text shortened]... iently.

    Is he a stereotype? Sure. Every character on that show is.

    Offensive? Give me a break.
    As an outsider to Indian culture (I think Apu's supposed to be Indian) you probably don't have as much of an understanding to the Indian experience, and what it's like to be Indian in America (or Middle Eastern person, South Asian, etc.).

    You're most likely a stranger to the humiliation such groups face being marginalized in America or in the eyes of the West. You probably have no idea the amount of discrimination and mockery they face, or where they're coming from when they object to an Apu kind of character.

    As a Jewish person, you have a deeper understanding of the bigotry they face, and a better understanding of how "Jewish jokes" affect them. Based on your posts, I'm sure you probably don't care about such jokes. But if you were offended, your opinion should matter and should be respected.
  12. Standard membershavixmir
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    28 Oct '18 17:381 edit
    @sh76 said
    they have the toothless hillbilly too, BTW, and I've never seen any agitation to get him removed.

    I don't watch network shows much anymore, but from when I used to watch the Simpsons, I remember Apu as being one of the most astute characters in the show when they did feature him. they did one where he was the most desirable bachelor. Then they had him have a bunch of kids an ...[text shortened]... iently.

    Is he a stereotype? Sure. Every character on that show is.

    Offensive? Give me a break.
    I agree completely.

    Nothing offensive about the Simpsons what-so-ever.

    And as for South park and family guy... they’re supposed to be offensive.
    And I’m pretty certain I’ve seen both shows having a go at moslims as well.

    Now, I am for equal rights, positive discrimination and I seriously think racism is an issue.
    But, this politically correct malarkey is completely out of hand.
    As if you’re gonna stop racist attitudes by banning an Indian character in a bloody cartoon???

    Same goes for sexism. Sexism in real life / in the work place has to be tackled and stamped out.
    Sexism in art, jokes, etc. has to be allowed.

    Anyone who can’t see context, is as fundamentalist as Wahabists and Calvinists.
  13. Joined
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    28 Oct '18 17:53
    @vivify said
    You bring up a good point: It's okay to mock Christians, but not Muslims or faiths associated with non-whites. That's because white Christians aren't an oppressed group; they're usually the oppressors.

    But still. If it's wrong to disparage people of one faith, that should be universally applied. If it's wrong to mock women for their looks, it should be just as wrong to mock men for their looks. If it's wrong to mock Hillary's hair style, so too for Trump.
    So we can't mock Trump's preposterous hair style?

    Really?

    Have you seen his hair?? How could you not mock that?

    And we can't mock Christians? Really? Fair point by Whodey: should Flanders be removed from the show, if some Christians start complaining? Would that be a good, morally sound decision by the Simpsons creators?
  14. Standard membervivify
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    28 Oct '18 18:101 edit
    @great-king-rat said
    So we can't mock Trump's preposterous hair style?

    Really?

    Have you seen his hair?? How could you not mock that?

    And we can't mock Christians? Really? Fair point by Whodey: should Flanders be removed from the show, if some Christians start complaining? Would that be a good, morally sound decision by the Simpsons creators?
    I have zero qualms about mocking any religion. I was just saying that if we're going to have a standard of "wrong" (like people who say it's wrong to mock a woman for her looks), then it should be universally applied. There never be double-standards, and it should be wrong to mock men for those things as well.

    Likewise, if we're going to be up-in-arms about mocking Muslims, there shouldn't be a double-standard making it okay to make fun of Christians.

    For the record, I don't think it's any more wrong to mock a woman for her looks than men. I do have a problem with looks being more important qualifications or character, especially when it comes to politicians. I don't care if you mock Hillary's hairstyle; but that should have zero affect on whether she gets elected or not. Same with Trump.

    I'm just saying, if you're going to have standards, apply them to everyone. Obviously, this doesn't apply to positive discrimination (saving women and children from danger first, affirmative action, etc.). That's a whole different topic.
  15. Standard membershavixmir
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    28 Oct '18 18:211 edit
    @vivify said
    I have zero qualms about mocking any religion. I was just saying that if we're going to have a standard of "wrong" (like people who say it's wrong to mock a woman for her looks), then it should be universally applied. There never be double-standards, and it should be wrong to mock men for those things as well.

    Likewise, if we're going to be up-in-arms about mocking Muslim ...[text shortened]... ng women and children from danger first, affirmative action, etc.). That's a whole different topic.
    There’s a subtle line due to context:

    Are you mocking a person as a joke or are you mocking them to spread hatred / propoganda?
    Are you mocking from a position of authority?

    If the Simpsons mock Indians with Apu... fine.
    If the president of the US does it... not fine.

    If I mock moslims... fine.
    If Mott-balls does it... not fine.

    It’s hard to put a finger on, it’s more a feeling... but everyone knows (feels) exactly what it is.

    It’s alright to grab your wife’s bum as a joke in the house when pranking each other about tickling.

    It’s not alright to grab your wife’s bum at her place of work, when her co-workers are watching.

    It’s a line. It’s there. And it’s context.
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