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  1. 03 Jun '10 16:49
    Biden / Gibbs / Clinton / Wolff support the raid

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/03/biden-israel-right-stop-gaza-ships/

    Biden: Israel Has Right to Stop Gaza Ships

    Published June 03, 2010

    Vice President Joe Biden backed Israel's right to board ships bound for Gaza to prevent weapons smuggling on Wednesday, but said Washington remained concerned about the plight of Palestinians there.

    Israeli commandos boarded a flotilla of six aid vessels trying to break Israel's three-year-old naval blockade of the Palestinian enclave on Monday. Nine activists were killed in the assault and dozens injured, including some commandos.

    The U.S. has been careful in its response to the deadly raid and has not joined the international condemnation of Israel's use of force to stop the ships after its commandos were attacked as they rappelled down from helicopters.

    "Israel has an absolute right to deal with its security interest," Biden said in an interview on PBS's "Charlie Rose" show, while reiterating the Obama administration's support for a transparent, impartial investigation of what happened.

    The aim of the Israeli commando operation had been to seize control of the ships and escort them to Israel's Ashdod port. From there, Israeli authorities had promised to transfer the seized cargo to Hamas-controlled Gaza.

    "They (Israel) have said, 'Here you go. You're in the Mediterranean. This ship -- if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we'll get the stuff into Gaza." So what's the big deal here?" Biden said.

    "What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza?" he asked.

    "Well, it's legitimate for Israel to say, 'I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping eight -- 3,000 rockets on my people,"' he said, referring to Hamas, the Islamist movement which rejects interim peace terms with Israel and has regularly fired rockets into the Jewish state.

    But Biden said the U.S. also needed to "put as much pressure and as much cajoling on Israel as we can" to allow in aid shipments such as building materials.

    A day earlier, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs did not question Israel's motives in trying to enforce its 3-year-old blockade of Gaza, which is ruled by Hamas, designated by the State Department as a foreign terrorist organization.

    The aim, he pointed out at a White House briefing Tuesday, is to keep weapons, not food, out of the territory.

    Gibbs said the U.S. is "working to improve the humanitarian conditions" in Gaza. At the same time, he stressed the administration was "greatly supportive" of Israel's security and "that's not going to change."

    Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton also did not call for an end to the blockade, but she pressed Israel to allow greater access to humanitarian relief supplies.

    In New York, meanwhile, the deputy U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Alejandro Wolff, suggested to reporters that the flotilla "may have been intended to provoke."

    ...
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    03 Jun '10 16:50
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    Biden / Gibbs / Clinton / Wolff support the raid

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/03/biden-israel-right-stop-gaza-ships/

    Biden: Israel Has Right to Stop Gaza Ships

    Published June 03, 2010

    Vice President Joe Biden backed Israel's right to board ships bound for Gaza to prevent weapons smuggling on Wednesday, but said Washington remained co ...[text shortened]... the flotilla "may have been intended to provoke."

    ...
    See, I've always liked Biden.
  3. Standard member Scriabin
    Done Asking
    03 Jun '10 17:06
    Originally posted by sh76
    See, I've always liked Biden.
    Biden is speaking for the US government. thus, his remarks have passed through review by the US Dept. of Justice, including a legal review by experts in international law of the sea.

    The mere fact he asserts Israel has a right to declare and enforce a naval blockade of Gaza states the US official legal position on that question.

    It ain't whether we like Joe, and I do a lot of the time, but whether we think the DOJ knows what the hell.

    Got to tell ya, I work with DOJ quite a lot and while they are indeed difficult, pointy headed, pencil necked lawyer geeks, they know their stuff and can run rings around most private sector lawyers who are not, themselves, DOJ alums.

    So, anyone asserting the USA legal position is wrong better cite some authority, provide precedent, quote some treatise or law review, or give us something besides their gut feelings.

    As you know, I don't care at all nor am I interested in hearing about what people feel about an issue.

    I prefer reasoned thinking based on something besides a fit of spleen or a bit of undigested cheese.

    Try not to waste our time ....
  4. 03 Jun '10 18:07
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    Biden / Gibbs / Clinton / Wolff support the raid

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/03/biden-israel-right-stop-gaza-ships/

    Biden: Israel Has Right to Stop Gaza Ships

    Published June 03, 2010

    Vice President Joe Biden backed Israel's right to board ships bound for Gaza to prevent weapons smuggling on Wednesday, but said Washington remained co ...[text shortened]... the flotilla "may have been intended to provoke."

    ...
    so the US supports its vassal state in the middle-east, no surprise there.
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    03 Jun '10 18:31
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    Biden is speaking for the US government. thus, his remarks have passed through review by the US Dept. of Justice, including a legal review by experts in international law of the sea.

    The mere fact he asserts Israel has a right to declare and enforce a naval blockade of Gaza states the US official legal position on that question.

    It ain't whether we li ...[text shortened]... hing besides a fit of spleen or a bit of undigested cheese.

    Try not to waste our time ....
    LMAO!!!! A hack politician pontificates on a subject repeating the politically popular position in the US and you chose to treat this as an authoritarian statement on international law??

    Even a gasbag like yourself must realize how ridiculous such an assertion is.
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    03 Jun '10 18:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    Biden / Gibbs / Clinton / Wolff support the raid

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/03/biden-israel-right-stop-gaza-ships/

    Biden: Israel Has Right to Stop Gaza Ships

    Published June 03, 2010

    Vice President Joe Biden backed Israel's right to board ships bound for Gaza to prevent weapons smuggling on Wednesday, but said Washington remained co the flotilla "may have been intended to provoke."

    ...
    Israel's blockade is not primarily designed to keep out weapons or it wouldn't include as proscribed items building materials, spices and other clearly non-weapon categories. As stated by the "Jew hating" Amnesty International"

    1 June 2010

    Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

    Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

    Closed borders
    Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, the five Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel or the West Bank have been kept closed.

    The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is controlled by the Egyptian authorities and kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.

    Basic goods
    The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.

    The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.

    Economic collapse
    Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.

    According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".

    Lack of facilities
    There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day. There are also recurrent shortages of cooking gas, requiring the implementation of a rationing scheme in which hospitals and bakeries are prioritised.

    Aid blocked
    While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.

    Health
    Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

    Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

    The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.

    World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.

    The Gaza conflict
    From 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, Gaza was subjected to a devastating Israeli military offensive – Operation “Cast Lead” – which Israel said it carried out to stop Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups firing indiscriminate rockets into Israel.

    More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

    Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.

    Continued violence
    In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.

    Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.

    Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.

    Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.

    Collective punishment
    The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.

    But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01
  7. Standard member Scriabin
    Done Asking
    03 Jun '10 18:46
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    LMAO!!!! A hack politician pontificates on a subject repeating the politically popular position in the US and you chose to treat this as an authoritarian statement on international law??

    Even a gasbag like yourself must realize how ridiculous such an assertion is.
    {sigh} One tries to avoid having to explain the basics to ignorant ultramaroons like you, such a waste of time.

    But for the benefit of others, you characterize a public statement by the US Vice President as pontification by a hack politician. How astute, if ad hominem, invalid, illogical, indicating only your lack of knowledge.

    An educated person would know that a public statement by the office of the Vice President of the USA cannot just be put out there on TV before it bubbles up through multiple layers of sedimentary bureaucrats and lawyers at multiple government agencies. In this case, the VP's words came from his staff as cleared by the State Dept, as well as by the Justice Dept section on international law.

    What ignorant boob would assume that this clearly political statement represents anything other than the official position of the USA?

    Would this ignorant boob believe the President would offer a disclaimer?

    Would this ignorant boob believe there is any one "right" arbiter of what is, authoritatively, the legality of the matter under international law?

    Everyone can take a stand on that question which will be determined by where they sit.

    What ignorant boob fails to see that the #2 elected official in the Federal Government's Executive Branch, who routinely speaks for the USA on foreign policy matters, has been prepped, cleared, and reviewed 4 ways from Thursday before saying what he did?

    In short, it would take a truly ignorant boob, and a pretty stupid one at that, not to understand or even know how government works in this country.

    What a nimcowpoop.
  8. Standard member Scriabin
    Done Asking
    03 Jun '10 18:59 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Israel's blockade is not primarily designed to keep out weapons or it wouldn't include as proscribed items building materials, spices and other clearly non-weapon categories.
    ...
    Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, I org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01
    Collective punishment? You betcha. that's the whole idea. Not a good one, mind you, for it isn't working. But yes, that's the thing in a nutshell.

    You probably think "--Why, why, that's CRUEL ... inhumane, wrong, err, terrible, [more emotional gibbering...] Must be illegal then, cause it makes me feel bad."

    However, the statement that "As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law" is anything but well established.

    As much as Israel's policy of collective deprivation is as ineffective as it has been and is to unseat Hamas, this bleeding heart expansion of the concept of humanitarian crisis serves only to cheapen the very terms it misidentifies and tries to distort.

    These people are not starving. They are being deprived of everything a sound, sustainable private economy would produce for them.

    All they got to do is stop all this nonsense and agree to live in peace on condition they get a job and some capital to work with. then watch what a private economy can do. It isn't Israel's fault that Arabs in that immediate vicinity or just about anywhere else in the Muslim world can't make an economy work for its people.

    The Gaza folks are being given the minimum necessary to sustain life and limb at a most basic, some would say miserable, level of existence.

    But that's the point, of course -- helloooo? Is anybody in there? -- or are we so comfortably numbed by the romanticized version of all this not to understand why the right wing in Israel might think this policy would sell.

    Of course, Sharon and Bibi both knew from the outset this wouldn't work to unseat Hamas. But the right of center non-European and Russian immigrant Israelis don't know or care about that.

    Right wingers cannot stay in power in peacetime. They cannot afford to make peace. They need the fear from the nutcase Arabs to keep control.

    You aren't going to wrest political control from the majority of non-western, non-Ashkenazi Israelis, who know all too well how much they can trust or even co-exist with their Arab brethren. Just ask some Jews from Iran, Syria, Morocco or Tunisia how things were in the old country.

    So the USA, had it the money and common sense, would buy off the Pals the same way the US bought off Egypt.

    Everyone can be bought.

    All this hand wringing about the poor poor Pals who have made their own miserable bed out of choice and the failure to take personal responsibility for their lives -- who is paying you to feel so deeply, you misbegotten, spotty load of parrott droppings?

    Feeling properly self righteous and indignant over the terrible things that happen in the world, bunky?

    Ever think you might want to get a clue?
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    03 Jun '10 19:02
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    {sigh} One tries to avoid having to explain the basics to ignorant ultramaroons like you, such a waste of time.

    But for the benefit of others, you characterize a public statement by the US Vice President as pontification by a hack politician. How astute, if ad hominem, invalid, illogical, indicating only your lack of knowledge.

    An educated person woul ...[text shortened]... , not to understand or even know how government works in this country.

    What a nimcowpoop.
    It's Joe Biden, you nitwit; if you knew anything about his history you'd know he shoots his mouth off routinely.

    At any rate, DOJ geniuses also have claimed that waterboarding isn't really torture and have asserted expansive theories of executive power that have routinely gotten quashed in the Supreme Court in the Gitmo cases. Why would anyone take their virtually solitary claims that the Israeli attack on these ships on the high seas was not a violation of international law seriously?
  10. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    03 Jun '10 19:06
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    Collective punishment? You betcha. that's the whole idea. Not a good one, mind you, for it isn't working. But yes, that's the thing in a nutshell.

    However, the statement that "As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law" is anything but well established.

    As much as Israel's poli ...[text shortened]... ble things that happen in the world, bunky?

    Ever think you might want to get a clue?
    Your arrogant prattle aside, Israel is an occupying power and is thus held to standards of treatment of the occupied population. You might think it's a swell idea for Israel to conduct itself criminally towards the Gazans, but that doesn't change the illegal nature of the acts. Kaltenbrunner and Sauckel thought the way they were treating occupied territories was good and wise too but that didn't prevent them eventually dancing from the end of a rope.
  11. Standard member Scriabin
    Done Asking
    03 Jun '10 19:08
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    It's Joe Biden, you nitwit; if you knew anything about his history you'd know he shoots his mouth off routinely.

    At any rate, DOJ geniuses also have claimed that waterboarding isn't really torture and have asserted expansive theories of executive power that have routinely gotten quashed in the Supreme Court in the Gitmo cases. Why would any ...[text shortened]... li attack on these ships on the high seas was not a violation of international law seriously?
    oh, I don't know. Maybe because what these nitwits do and say MATTERS and what you say and do DOESN'T matter.

    Not to anyone.

    Fool.
  12. Standard member Scriabin
    Done Asking
    03 Jun '10 19:09
    Held by whom?

    Hung by whom?

    Who is being arrogant here?

    Why, it looks like the one who can't see the forest, as well as the trees.

    You have shown us all that you cannot find your own rear end with either hand.
  13. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    03 Jun '10 19:23
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    Held by whom?

    Hung by whom?

    Who is being arrogant here?

    Why, it looks like the one who can't see the forest, as well as the trees.

    You have shown us all that you cannot find your own rear end with either hand.
    Is that supposed to be some kind of an answer?

    Here's some study material for you; the Fourth Geneva Convention 1949 - Section III deals with the requirements under international law towards Occupied Territories: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5

    Specific clauses violated by Israel's treatment of Gaza are:

    Art. 55. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population; it should, in particular, bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate.

    Art. 56. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring and maintaining, with the cooperation of national and local authorities, the medical and hospital establishments and services, public health and hygiene in the occupied territory, with particular reference to the adoption and application of the prophylactic and preventive measures necessary to combat the spread of contagious diseases and epidemics. Medical personnel of all categories shall be allowed to carry out their duties.

    etc. etc. etc.
  14. 03 Jun '10 19:36
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    It's Joe Biden, you nitwit; if you knew anything about his history you'd know he shoots his mouth off routinely.

    At any rate, DOJ geniuses also have claimed that waterboarding isn't really torture and have asserted expansive theories of executive power that have routinely gotten quashed in the Supreme Court in the Gitmo cases. Why would any ...[text shortened]... li attack on these ships on the high seas was not a violation of international law seriously?
    Joe Biden, Robert Gibbs, Hillary Clinton, and Alejandro Wolff.
  15. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    03 Jun '10 19:57
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    Joe Biden, Robert Gibbs, Hillary Clinton, and Alejandro Wolff.
    Their job is to say whatever it takes to promote American interests.

    Palestine is sandwiched between the biggest and second biggest recipient of US aid, 'special partner' Israel and client state Egypt respectively.