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  1. 22 Feb '11 19:14
    a thug. a murderer. a red mangy termite on the history of the world.
  2. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    22 Feb '11 19:16
    WE WILL FIGHT FOR BOVINE FREEDOM

    Cows With Guns
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI
  3. 22 Feb '11 19:20
    I have no idea why he is so revered, even in leftist circles. Charismatic appearance, I guess.
  4. 22 Feb '11 19:21
    Originally posted by reinfeld
    a thug. a murderer. a red mangy termite on the history of the world.
    Many praiseworthy people fit that description, Churchill, Stalin, you name it.

    Che Guevara, despite all his faults, was an inspired human being concerned about the inequalities of his continent, perhaps if you had lived in South American back then (or even today) you'd understand where the desire for revolution came from.
  5. 22 Feb '11 19:39
    i am 64. i studied south american history as my college major. che was a pig. i was very happy to learn that american green berets and bolivian troops shot him painfully to death and then decapitated his head and cut off his hands.
  6. 22 Feb '11 19:47
    Originally posted by reinfeld
    i am 64. i studied south american history as my college major. che was a pig. i was very happy to learn that american green berets and bolivian troops shot him painfully to death and then decapitated his head and cut off his hands.
    You can study history all you want, but the hardships of an impoverished people cannot be perceived from the words of books. Im no apologist of revolutionary communism, far from it, but I can't pretend that I don't understand where Che, Castro, and earlier revolutionaries like Luis Carlos Prestes were coming from.
  7. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    22 Feb '11 20:12
    Originally posted by reinfeld
    i am 64. i studied south american history as my college major. che was a pig. i was very happy to learn that american green berets and bolivian troops shot him painfully to death and then decapitated his head and cut off his hands.
    Here's a Che story. Last summer the fam and I road tripped on down to see the Redwoods. On the way back we stopped at this tourist spot called the Trees of Mystery. Out in front of this place they have a couple of big statues of Paul Bunyan and his big blue Ox, Babe.

    Picture here...
    http://www.treesofmystery.net/entertain.htm

    Now, somewhere behind the scenes there's a dude who controls the Paul Bunyan statue. He can see you, talk to you, make Paul wave his hand, wink etc, and he has a lot of fun starting up conversations with tourists who don't expect the big statue to strike up a conversation with them.

    Anyway, I'm sitting out in front on a bench waiting for my family to get done in the gift shop. Big Paul, Babe and I are just hanging out in silence, when this teenager wearing a Che T-shirt walks up and sits down on the bench.

    Right then from out the blue Paul Bunyan says to the kid "Hey, did you know that Che Guevara was a MASS MURDERER?" It was hilarious. The kid obviously had no idea the statue could talk, and was completely nonplussed. He looked all around, then up at big Paul, then at me, and I just said "It's true dude. Paul knows what he's talking about. You really should turn that shirt inside out or something until you can find something else to wear."

    The kid just got up and left, and I sat there having a hearty laugh with Paul Bunyan. Priceless.
  8. Standard member joneschr
    Some guy
    22 Feb '11 22:14 / 1 edit
    Ha! I've been there - wonderful story.

    I love the Che shirts. Nothing shouts "capitalism won" more than a bunch of rich kids paying for overpriced T-shirts of socialist revolutionaries. Che must be screaming in his grave.
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Feb '11 22:24
    Originally posted by joneschr
    Ha! I've been there - wonderful story.

    I love the Che shirts. Nothing shouts "capitalism won" more than a bunch of rich kids paying for overpriced T-shirts of socialist revolutionaries. Che must be screaming in his grave.
    More likely Che would be having a good chuckle that the communist regime in Cuba outlasted the Soviet Union.
  10. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Feb '11 22:30
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I have no idea why he is so revered, even in leftist circles. Charismatic appearance, I guess.
    Not suprised an elitist academic wouldn't get it. Perhaps this will provide a clue:

    The Rebels land on the coast of Cuba

    It was daylight on 2 December by the time they reached the beach of Las Coloradas. A coast guard boat had spotted them and they were immediately attacked by enemy planes as they disembarked. They ran for cover and became lost in mangrove-covered swamps. It had been seven days of continuous hunger and seasickness. Exactly ten days after the departure from Mexico, after a night march interrupted by fainting, exhaustion, and rest for the troops, they reached a point known - paradoxically - by the name of Alegria [joy] de Pio. They stopped to rest for a day and continue the following night. 'All that was left of our war equipment was our rifles, cartridge belts and a few rounds of ammunition. Our medical supplies had disappeared, and most of our knapsacks had been left behind in the swamps. The previous night we had passed through one of the canefields...We had managed to satisfy our hunger and thirst by eating sugarcane, but due to our lack of experience we had left a trail of cane peelings and bagasse all over the place. Not that the guards looking for us needed any trail to follow our steps, for it had been our guide - as we found out years later -who had betrayed us and brought them there.' (ibid) A hail of bullets rained down on the 82-man troop. Che was hit in his chest and neck. Camilo Cienfuegos shouted 'Nobody surrenders here!' and Fidel vainly attempted to get everybody together in the shelter of the adjoining canefield. By the time they managed to reach the canefield many of them were dead and planes flying low straffed the field. Columns of flame and smoke began to rise as the canefield was set on fire. They walked until they were too exhausted to continue and threw themselves down to sleep, starving, thirsty and plagued by mosquitos. Only a handful of them were left.
    On January 14, 1957 they came across the La Plata army barracks. They staked out the barracks and at nightfall on the 16th the Rebel Army crossed the shallow La Plata river and took two peasants `into custody'. Reassured that they would come to no harm they told the rebels that there were only about 15 soldiers in the barracks and that one of the region's most notorious foreman was about to ride by. 'Shortly afterward, Chicho showed up, astride a mule, with a little black boy riding "double". Chicho was drunk. Universo Sanchez gave him an order to halt in the name of the Rural Guards and immediately Chicho replied: "Mosquito". That was the password. We must have looked like a bunch of pirates, but Chicho Osorio was so drunk we were able to fool him. Fidel stepped forward and, looking very indignant, said he was an army colonel who had come to find out why the rebels had not yet been wiped out...Sheepishly, Chicho Osorio admitted that the guards spent all their time inside the barracks, eating and doing nothing...He told us how he had killed two men...Fidel asked Osorio what he would do if he ever caught Fidel Castro and Osorio, with a very expressive gesture, replied "We'll have to cut his____ off...Look," he said, showing us his shoes..."these shoes belonged to one of those sons of _____ we killed."...he agreed to accompany us to the barracks in order to surprise the soldiers and prove to them they were badly prepared and were neglecting their duties.' (ibid)
    They had 22 weapons for the attack. They were so short of ammunition that if they failed to take the barracks they would have been left defenceless. The rebels' Brazilian hand grenades failed to go off and they had to risk their lives by approaching close to the barracks to set the houses on fire. After initial resistance the rebels took the barracks with no casualties on their side. They freed all the prisoners and armed with the weapons they had captured started for Palma Mocha and from there they sought out the most inaccessible zones of the Sierra Maestra.

    http://www.rcgfrfi.easynet.co.uk/ratb/cuba/history4.htm
  11. 22 Feb '11 22:43
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Not suprised an elitist academic wouldn't get it. Perhaps this will provide a clue:

    The Rebels land on the coast of Cuba

    It was daylight on 2 December by the time they reached the beach of Las Coloradas. A coast guard boat had spotted them and they were immediately attacked by enemy planes as they disembarked. They ran for cover and ...[text shortened]... e Sierra Maestra.

    http://www.rcgfrfi.easynet.co.uk/ratb/cuba/history4.htm
    Guerilla warfare, impressive. Only about a million or so people have done the same.
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Feb '11 22:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Guerilla warfare, impressive. Only about a million or so people have done the same.
    How many times has a group of about 7 survivors managed to overthrow a government within 18 months?

    EDIT: Sorry, it took them 25 months.
  13. 22 Feb '11 22:52
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    How many times has a group of about 7 survivors managed to overthrow a government within 18 months?
    They were facing a deeply unpopular regime. The regimes in Tunisia and Egypt (and possibly Libya, Bahrain and/or Iran soon) were toppled because of one guy setting himself on fire. The Bolshevik revolution in Russia was led by a small group of people. Jeltsin pretty much single handedly seized power in Russia after the USSR collapsed. Here in the Netherlands it was basically just one guy who orchestrated the fall of the dictatorship in 1848. There are many more examples, the unifying theme being that they all faced an unpopular and/or unstable regime.
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Feb '11 23:06 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    They were facing a deeply unpopular regime. The regimes in Tunisia and Egypt (and possibly Libya, Bahrain and/or Iran soon) were toppled because of one guy setting himself on fire. The Bolshevik revolution in Russia was led by a small group of people. Jeltsin pretty much single handedly seized power in Russia after the USSR collapsed. Here in the Nether ...[text shortened]... more examples, the unifying theme being that they all faced an unpopular and/or unstable regime.
    I was just reading a book on the Russian Civil War which pointed out that during that conflict the Reds had close to 5 million men under arms. Some "small group".

    Palace coups like Yeltsin's don't compare to facing death in the jungle (and watching most of your comrades killed or captured - the latter meaning the same thing).
  15. 22 Feb '11 23:22 / 1 edit
    I love it when people defend Che because he wanted social equality and then murdered thousands.

    Like defending Charles Manson because he says pollution is bad.