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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    16 Jan '12 07:25
    "In the three months since the Israeli Health Ministry awarded a prize to a pediatrics professor for her book on hereditary diseases common to Jews, her experience at the awards ceremony has become a rallying cry.

    The professor, Channa Maayan, knew that the acting health minister, who is ultra-Orthodox, and other religious people would be in attendance. So she wore a long-sleeve top and a long skirt. But that was hardly enough.

    Not only did Dr. Maayan and her husband have to sit separately, as men and women were segregated at the event, but she was instructed that a male colleague would have to accept the award for her because women were not permitted on stage."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/world/middleeast/israel-faces-crisis-over-role-of-ultra-orthodox-in-society.html?em&exprod=myyahoo

    We have heard over and over again that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, but in what sort of democracy are 1 in 8 sexist bigots who oppress women?

    Oh, and these are also the morons trying to settle on Palestinian land. Besides which, they refuse to work and subsist on government handouts. Amazing.

    I fail to understand how any American can support a country that endorses such blatantly sexist practices -- and Israel DOES endorse them. If the Ministry of Health in a country endorses something, and if the government provides millions in subsidies to a group that enforces these sorts of practices -- then that government DOES endorse it.

    I call upon the US to immediately stop all aid and support for the country of Israel until such practices are shown to have ceased.
  2. 16 Jan '12 10:27
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    "In the three months since the Israeli Health Ministry awarded a prize to a pediatrics professor for her book on hereditary diseases common to Jews, her experience at the awards ceremony has become a rallying cry.

    The professor, Channa Maayan, knew that the acting health minister, who is ultra-Orthodox, and other religious people would be in attendan ...[text shortened]... p all aid and support for the country of Israel until such practices are shown to have ceased.
    I knew that Israel practice apartheid against Palestinians within their borders.
    But I didn't know that they are practicing apartheid against half of their population?

    Do they use yellow stars too? So they know who they will exclude from their society?
  3. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    16 Jan '12 13:13
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    "In the three months since the Israeli Health Ministry awarded a prize to a pediatrics professor for her book on hereditary diseases common to Jews, her experience at the awards ceremony has become a rallying cry.

    The professor, Channa Maayan, knew that the acting health minister, who is ultra-Orthodox, and other religious people would be in attendan ...[text shortened]... p all aid and support for the country of Israel until such practices are shown to have ceased.
    just a question...is it only because the acting health minister was orthodox that they pulled this kind of stunt, and it would not have happened otherwise?

    I do think it appalling and hypocritical, that if this was fairly common in Israel that we only occasionally hear about it, but get fed a constant diet by the media as to how sexist and controlling of women the supposed male dominated Arab/Islamic societies are.
  4. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    16 Jan '12 13:35
    Women didn't get the vote in Switzerland until the 1970's.
    Women couldn't be raped by their husbands in most of Europe until the 1980's.

    Women in many Western countries can't have abortions (their body, they can do as they please).

    1 in 5 women in Western countries are physically abused in the home.

    ANYONE who thinks that Israel or the Arab States are backwards are kidding themselves. They're just more open in their sexist habits.
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jan '12 13:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    "In the three months since the Israeli Health Ministry awarded a prize to a pediatrics professor for her book on hereditary diseases common to Jews, her experience at the awards ceremony has become a rallying cry.

    The professor, Channa Maayan, knew that the acting health minister, who is ultra-Orthodox, and other religious people would be in attendan p all aid and support for the country of Israel until such practices are shown to have ceased.
    What utter BS.

    You have a woman scientist receiving an award for advances in medicine who is obviously given the same opportunity as men in every sphere of life that matters and you get all worked up because she wears a long sleeve shirt and because genders sit in different sections of the room???? Just because something is slightly different from your narrow minded little world doesn't mean it's wrong or sexist.

    Geez. Get a life.

    And, dimwit, there are very few ultra-Orthodox settlers in the WB. Most of the religious settlers are "Mizrachi" who are anything but ultra-Orthodox and and are an entirely different group of people from the people you're attacking.

    Get the first clue as to what you're talking about before you get on your high horse and start these grandiose calls for the US to do things.

  6. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jan '12 13:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by kmax87
    just a question...is it only because the acting health minister was orthodox that they pulled this kind of stunt, and it would not have happened otherwise?

    I do think it appalling and hypocritical, that if this was fairly common in Israel that we only occasionally hear about it, but get fed a constant diet by the media as to how sexist and controlling of women the supposed male dominated Arab/Islamic societies are.
    this kind of "stunt" is their system. The ultra-Orthodox separate the genders in synagogues and at public gatherings. It's not a big deal. Why would anyone think it's their job to tell these people how to conduct their public gatherings?
  7. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    16 Jan '12 13:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    this kind of "stunt" is their system. The ultra-Orthodox separate the genders in synagogues and at public gatherings. It's not a big deal. Why would anyone think it's their job to tell these people how to conduct their public gatherings?
    I was not aware of the reach of the ultra orthodox outside of the religious sphere into otherwise ordinary life.

    EDIT: Having been a child of the media for over 30 years, my gut instinct would be to think that this was unusual. My impression of Israel was of a much more western, liberal, integrated society, where if there was any separation between groups, it was minimal and only within the walls of certain orthodox environments.
  8. 16 Jan '12 13:55 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    ANYONE who thinks that Israel or the Arab States are backwards are kidding themselves. They're just more open in their sexist habits.
    Noone is saying anything about Arab States in this thread. Go and create a thread that takes care of that problem.

    If the fundamentalist minority would rule the rest of the Israeli people, then we would have a terror to all women in Israel. The time would be turned back hundreds of years. Let's pray that tha never will happen. Let's pray that the normal majority of the Israeli people say NO to every action that diminish women in Israel to no more that pets.

    Let's pray that Israel will once become a democracy.
  9. 16 Jan '12 14:00 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    this kind of "stunt" is their system. The ultra-Orthodox separate the genders in synagogues and at public gatherings. It's not a big deal. Why would anyone think it's their job to tell these people how to conduct their public gatherings?
    It's not their (Ultra-Orthodox) public gathering, it's an awards ceremony of the ministry of health. That a minority starts imposing it's own strict and sexist rules on society as a whole as soon as they have some power to do so is worrying.

    You say that this women gets the same chances as a man would, but might that have something to do with the fact that the influence of the Ultra-Orthodox is not as big as they'd want it to be? Not allowing someone to accept the award that they won is an insult. If they really considered man and women equal, they'd have kept the men of stage or out of the building in an event that was to honour the work of a woman and not the other way around.
  10. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    16 Jan '12 14:51
    Originally posted by sh76
    What utter BS.

    You have a woman scientist receiving an award for advances in medicine who is obviously given the same opportunity as men in every sphere of life that matters and you get all worked up because she wears a long sleeve shirt and because genders sit in different sections of the room???? Just because something is slightly different from your narro ...[text shortened]... se and start these grandiose calls for the US to do things.

    How do you feel about blacks riding in the back of the bus? Hell, it's the same bus going to the same place, right? What about separate drinking fountains -- hell, it's the same water...!

    Are you seriously espousing the doctrine of separate but equal?!?

    Please take it back, before I lose a lot of respect for you. I realize you are emotionally involved in the issue, but you know as well as I do that this is wrong on the face of it.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jan '12 15:02
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    How do you feel about blacks riding in the back of the bus? Hell, it's the same bus going to the same place, right? What about separate drinking fountains -- hell, it's the same water...!

    Are you seriously espousing the doctrine of separate but equal?!?

    Please take it back, before I lose a lot of respect for you. I realize you are emotionally involved in the issue, but you know as well as I do that this is wrong on the face of it.
    All right.

    First of all, I apologize for getting emotional. I don't really think you're all those things I called you. You provoked it with your thread title (I mean, come on, was that thread title really necessary?) and inflammatory rhetoric, but anyway...

    I don't condone this separate but equal gender stuff. I think its archaic and silly. But it's not the same as race segregation. Women are not a discreet and insular minority that can be confined to their own societies. Women are obviously a major part of every society. The separations are not meant to oppress women or keep them down. Instead of oversexualizing women like we do in places like Las Vegas and Amsterdam, they want to undersexualize women so as to avoid problems like adultery and out of wedlock pregnancies. So, they separate the genders at public events. You and I may think that's a bad idea, but it is in no way comparable to race segregation.
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jan '12 15:05 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by Barts
    It's not their (Ultra-Orthodox) public gathering, it's an awards ceremony of the ministry of health. That a minority starts imposing it's own strict and sexist rules on society as a whole as soon as they have some power to do so is worrying.

    You say that this women gets the same chances as a man would, but might that have something to do with the fact that e building in an event that was to honour the work of a woman and not the other way around.
    No, it's not. Education levels of women in ultra-Orthodox societies are at least as high as that of men.

    They have anachronistic solutions to perceived problems of oversexualization of society. It's really not any more malignant than that.

    Incidentally, this business about the poor woman being forced to wear long sleeves is BS. Ultra-Orthodox men dress just as "modestly." Just Google and look at a few pictures. It's not as though the women wear burkas and the men wear swimsuits. Both genders dress like they're at a funeral 24/7/365. You may not like that idea, but it's not sexist.
  13. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jan '12 15:07
    Originally posted by kmax87
    I was not aware of the reach of the ultra orthodox outside of the religious sphere into otherwise ordinary life.

    EDIT: Having been a child of the media for over 30 years, my gut instinct would be to think that this was unusual. My impression of Israel was of a much more western, liberal, integrated society, where if there was any separation between groups, it was minimal and only within the walls of certain orthodox environments.
    It is, though those "certain Orthodox segments" make up close to 10% of the population.
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    16 Jan '12 15:15 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    What utter BS.

    You have a woman scientist receiving an award for advances in medicine who is obviously given the same opportunity as men in every sphere of life that matters and you get all worked up because she wears a long sleeve shirt and because genders sit in different sections of the room???? Just because something is slightly different from your narro se and start these grandiose calls for the US to do things.

    "Very few"?

    Today there are over 70,000 ultra-Orthodox living in the West Bank.http://peacenow.org.il/eng/content/ultra-orthodox-jews-west-bank

    That was as of October 2005. Given the rapid increase in settlement activity since then, a reasonable surmise is that there would be at least 100,000 now.

    EDIT: Figures from December 2009: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/ultraorthosettlements.html

    They add up to around 95,000.
  15. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jan '12 15:21 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    "Very few"?

    Today there are over 70,000 ultra-Orthodox living in the West Bank.http://peacenow.org.il/eng/content/ultra-orthodox-jews-west-bank

    That was as of October 2005. Given the rapid increase in settlement activity since then, a reasonable surmise is that there would be at least 100,000 now.
    That article uses a different definition of ultra-Orthodox than in the context that Spruce is referring to.

    The group of people that comprise voters of UTJ and Shas is much broader than the group of people that requires public gatherings to be gender segregated. In fact, there are many non-Orthodox Shas voters who rely on Shas to represent the interests of Sephardic Jews of all stripes.