Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    19 May '18 23:071 edit
    Many readers may have become concerned about Israel's violence
    against unarmed Palestinians and are wondering what to do next.

    I know that 'some readers' does not mean 'every reader', far from it.
    I already know that many Westerners, perhaps most Americans (both
    'conservative' and 'liberal', both Jewish and non-Jewish) support Israel
    unconditionally and apparently regard Palestinians as less than human.
    So I already expect these supporters of Israel to hate me; they need not remind me.

    Given that there's so much ignorant dehumanizing stereotyping of Palestinians
    in the West (particularly the USA), I would encourage people to reach out
    and meet real Palestinians, get to know them as diverse people, keeping
    in mind that Palestinians have busy lives with many things to do besides
    educating Westerners about themselves. It's not that hard for Westerners
    to meet Palestinians. Many universities have Palestinian student organizations.
    If they have enough time, Palestinian students tend to be responsive
    toward open-minded inquiries from people sincerely interested in learning.
    Just keep in mind that most students are not professionals in history or politics.

    In the USA, Jewish Voice for Peace is an organization whose meetings
    I sometimes attended. I had Jewish friends who were active in JVP.

    https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

    "Jewish Voice for Peace works for justice, equality and dignity for all in Israel/Palestine.
    The best way you can learn more about what’s happening in Gaza and
    take action is to become a member and take these 5 steps:"

    One does not have to be Jewish in order to attend JVP meetings.
    In my experience, a few very pro-Israeli Jews have attended JVP meetings
    and sometimes attempted to disrupt them .

    The BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) movement includes various
    boycotts (economic, cultural, academic) of Israel. One may support
    any or all of them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions

    Here are some comments by a Western musician:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/02/20122198353750111.html

    "Today the illegal settlements are completely out of control, with 300,000
    [Jewish] settlers planted across the Green Line in the West Bank and
    another 200,000 beyond the Green Line in East Jerusalem. Borders are
    creatively moved and enforced by the infamous wall, started by the ideas
    of Yitzhak Rabin and greatly expanded by Ariel Sharon. It's a black eye
    on the face of Israel's reputation today, considered so even among
    many of Israel's citizens and supporters.

    Some [Israeli Jews] people told me that if the wall had been built along
    the Green Line, it might have actually worked. But Sharon then used it
    as a land grab, creatively and maniacally routing it through the middle
    of Palestinian towns, Palestinian farmland and across Palestinian roads,
    in a deliberate attempt to make the West Bank such a splattered Swiss-cheese
    hodgepodge of impassable walls and checkpoints that a free Palestinian state
    could never get off the ground."

    That's a major problem with the 'two state solution'.

    "The occupying army [IDF] is practicing apartheid in the occupied territories,
    and enforces and maintains it to the smallest, most obsessive detail.
    Like South Africa, there is a pass system called Tasrich, and a census
    law requiring people's ethnicity on their ID books. Jewish Israelis have a
    blue book, Palestinian books are orange and state whether they are
    Muslim or Christian, and non-Jewish immigrant workers' books are green."

    "Yet bringing down this [Israeli] regime by boycott may be a much higher
    mountain to climb than the boycott of South Africa. The 1985 musician
    boycott of Sun City (a posh, government-owned golf resort and casino
    in South Africa) was just a promotional tool for the financial boycott, where
    banks, universities and corporations caved into pressure to pull their
    investments out of South Africa and broke the back of the white apartheid regime.

    With South Africa, there was not heavy-duty religion involved. There
    were not millions in the US and worldwide so emotionally attached to the
    other side [Israel] for that reason. There was not a powerful Americans
    for Apartheid lobby in Washington DC or Students for a White South
    Africa on campus. Investors who pulled their money out did not risk an
    even bigger backlash from pro-Apartheid stockholders and customers.

    There was not so much money pouring in from boycott-proof super-rich
    zealots such as Netanyahu and settler patron Sheldon Adelson, a casino
    tycoon - whose estimated $28bn makes him reportedly the third-richest
    American and the richest Jew in the world.

    I am not saying the same tactics that brought down apartheid South Africa
    can't be done. I am just saying that there are different and heavier
    obstacles this time and [pro-Palestinian] people need to be ready for them.

    South Africa never had anything like the AIPAC (American Israel Public
    Affairs Committee) lobby, which is now considered more of a lobby for
    Likud than for the Israeli people. Nevertheless, they have a stranglehold
    over almost every member of Congress of both parties, using Joe McCarthy-type
    tactics to smear anyone they don't like as anti-Jewish - and get them
    voted out of office.

    Then there is the massive funding of settlers, extremists and more by the
    US Christian right. I am told Mike Huckabee is a regular fixture at the settlements.
    Sarah Palin - whose end-of-the-world doomsday visions rival those of
    Ahmadinejad - is on board too, telling Barbara Walters that Israel needs to
    speed up settlement construction because, "more and more Jewish people
    will be flocking to Israel in the days and weeks and months ahead".

    This is not because they love Israel or the Jewish people. This is because,
    according to certain strains of evangelical Christianity, the Messiah will
    return only when the Jewish people return to the Holy Land."

    That explains why Suzianne (a 'liberal' American evangelical Christian)
    is an absolute supporter of Israel and Zionism, never having shown any
    empathy even for Palestinian Christian women.

    "This is why the US Christian right is much more interested in aiding Jewish
    settlers who don't need the money than they are in aiding Palestinian
    Christians on the other side of the Wall who do. I asked people in Israel
    about this and they told me the settlers don't care about their motives,
    they just want the money and think they're using the Christians."

    "What the Palestinian Solidarity Movement does have on its side is the
    horror of the occupation itself for all to see. ... Believe me, most Americans
    are so out of it, they have no idea any of this is happening."

    "I support the people of Palestine in their fight to be free, and the many
    brave Israelis who are totally fed up with their government's human rights
    violations and who want to live in peace."

    "I have a lot to learn and a long way to go."
    --Jello Biafra

    He should be commended for his modesty at the end.
    While Jello Biafra and I don't completely agree, I would welcome him in the common
    struggle against Israel's continuing brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.
  2. Joined
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    20 May '18 00:59
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Many readers may have become concerned about Israel's violence
    against unarmed Palestinians and are wondering what to do next.

    I know that 'some readers' does not mean 'every reader', far from it.
    I already know that many Westerners, perhaps most Americans (both
    'conservative' and 'liberal', both Jewish and non-Jewish) support Israel
    unconditional ...[text shortened]... in the common
    struggle against Israel's continuing brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.
    I have an idea...when you tell Israel you are going to invade them and take back your land, and Israel tells you that if you violate the safe zone you will be shot...listen next time...problem solved.
  3. Subscribersonhouse
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    slatington, pa, usa
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    20 May '18 01:383 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Many readers may have become concerned about Israel's violence
    against unarmed Palestinians and are wondering what to do next.

    I know that 'some readers' does not mean 'every reader', far from it.
    I already know that many Westerners, perhaps most Americans (both
    'conservative' and 'liberal', both Jewish and non-Jewish) support Israel
    unconditional ...[text shortened]... in the common
    struggle against Israel's continuing brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.
    We had very good Palestinian friends in Israel, the Abudya's were really wonderful people, their kids and ours went to the same school, the Anglican International school in Jerusalem, K-12. My son and their two kids graduated together from grade 12 and we and the Abadya's gave our kids Europasses and they toured Europe for an entire summer.

    A great time was had by all.

    That said, we also had great Israeli friends too, we play folk music and played at folk fests from Elat in the south to the Kinneret (Sea of Galilee) where there is a great folk festival, Jacob's ladder held there for 40 years, we played there 3 years in a row so we had friends both sides the tweed.

    I was also a friend of Abu Ganan, Palestinian and professional oud player who played with the Israeli philharmonic when they needed oud.
    He almost never let people touch his oud but allowed me to play it, an honor really.
    I found the first two sets of strings were a fifth apart like violin or mandolin and was able to play an Irish tune on it using just those 4 strings. Abu was impressed, never saw anyone who could play something like that on oud. He was a really nice guy.

    But we don't count I guess, just a drop in the bucket of the American bias against Palestinians.
  4. Behind the scenes
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    20 May '18 09:322 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Many readers may have become concerned about Israel's violence
    against unarmed Palestinians and are wondering what to do next.

    I know that 'some readers' does not mean 'every reader', far from it.
    I already know that many Westerners, perhaps most Americans (both
    'conservative' and 'liberal', both Jewish and non-Jewish) support Israel
    unconditional ...[text shortened]... in the common
    struggle against Israel's continuing brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.
    So I already expect these supporters of Israel to hate me; they need not remind me.



    Here is some inside information Duchess you may not have thought of: Supporters of Israel, as well as most people here don't think about you at all 99.99% of the time, nor do they feel the need to waste their energy hating you. You might consider that your stated goal is to "give abusive lying racist trolls like Mchill something they need to hate" (see your previous post to me) if this is your attitude, you can hardly expect people to like you. I've noted a number of people here who have made sincere attempts to engage you in a friendly and respectful manner, and your reaction has been to provoke, insult, and find fault, with this in mind I'll paraphrase a line from an old movie:

    "You see a great deal, but why don't you point that high powered perception of yours at yourself, why don't you take a long, hard look in the mirror and write down what you see, or are you afraid to??" 😲
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
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    20 May '18 11:19
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Many readers may have become concerned about Israel's violence
    against unarmed Palestinians and are wondering what to do next.

    I know that 'some readers' does not mean 'every reader', far from it.
    I already know that many Westerners, perhaps most Americans (both
    'conservative' and 'liberal', both Jewish and non-Jewish) support Israel
    unconditional ...[text shortened]... in the common
    struggle against Israel's continuing brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.
    Duchy: I already know that many Westerners, perhaps most Americans (both
    'conservative' and 'liberal', both Jewish and non-Jewish) support Israel
    unconditionally and apparently regard Palestinians as less than human.

    Why you stubbornly persist in making such false statements in the face of the overwhelming polling evidence I have presented to you is an utter mystery.
  6. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    20 May '18 12:58
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    I have an idea...when you tell Israel you are going to invade them and take back your land, and Israel tells you that if you violate the safe zone you will be shot...listen next time...problem solved.
    You really are clueless, aren’t you.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    20 May '18 18:29
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    You really are clueless, aren’t you.
    You noticed.
  8. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    21 May '18 00:381 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Duchy: I already know that many Westerners, perhaps most Americans (both
    'conservative' and 'liberal', both Jewish and non-Jewish) support Israel
    unconditionally and apparently regard Palestinians as less than human.

    Why you stubbornly persist in making such false statements in the face of the overwhelming polling evidence I have presented to you is an utter mystery.
    As an ethnocentric racist white American, No1Marauder apparently worships the (white-dominated)
    mainstream US media and seems willfully blind to its often dehumanizing stereotyping
    of various politically impotent minorities, including Arabs or Palestinians.

    "Jack G. Shaheen, an Arab American scholar, author and activist who devoted his
    career to challenging venomous stereotypes of Arabs in film and television ...
    --'Washington Post' obituary of Jack Shaheen

    Jack Shaheen wrote _The TV Arab_, _Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People_,
    and _Guilty: Hollywood's Verdict on Arabs After 9/11_

    No1Marauder may be willfully blind to 'venomous stereotypes' of Arabs (including Palestinians

    http://inthesetimes.com/article/21144/Gaza-Protests-Israel-Great-Return-March-Noura-Erakat-CBS-Media

    "Watch This Palestinian-American Woman Crush Every Media Trope About the Gaza Protests.
    Noura Erakat delivers a much-needed corrective to dehumanizing U.S. media spin."

    "Noura Erakat, a Palestinian-American human rights attorney, activist and assistant
    professor at George Mason University, tells In These Times that widespread
    dehumanization [of Palestinians] in the U.S. media ..."

    But No1Marauder presumably would like to deny that the US media dehumanizes Palestinians.
    If so, real Palestinans (whom No1Marauder never has met) would strongly disagree with him.

    https://jewishjournal.org/2017/11/16/american-media-fails-to-give-equal-time-to-pro-palestinian-voices/

    "American media fails to give equal time to pro-Palestinian voices"
    --Carolyn Corzine (writing in response to criticisms in ''Jewish Journal' )

    Now I don't know if No1Marauder would concede that the mainstream US media has
    any pro-Israeli bias at all, but he seems to believe that its dehumanizing stereotypes of
    the Palestinians should have no influence upon how Americans perceive the Palestinians.
    (I wonder if No1Marauder would argue that the racist propaganda of the KKK (or other
    white supremacist groups) should have no influence at all upon white Americans.)
  9. Zugzwang
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    21 May '18 00:474 edits
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    We had very good Palestinian friends in Israel, the Abudya's were really wonderful people, their kids and ours went to the same school, the Anglican International school in Jerusalem, K-12. My son and their two kids graduated together from grade 12 and we and the Abadya's gave our kids Europasses and they toured Europe for an entire summer.

    A great ti ...[text shortened]... But we don't count I guess, just a drop in the bucket of the American bias against Palestinians.
    "But we don't count I guess, just a drop in the bucket of the American bias against Palestinians."
    --Sonhouse

    There's a Chinese saying: Qiānlǐ zhī xíng, shǐyú zú xià;
    literally: "A journey of a thousand li starts beneath one's feet".

    You do count. You have taken the first step (and more) in recognizing the Palestinians
    as fellow human beings, who deserve equal rights and to be treated with human dignity.
    And the Palestinians deserve all this *unconditionally*. Palestinian human rights do not
    depend morally upon them yielding even more land to Jewish settlers or even more of
    their already feeble remaining 'power' in order to appease Israel's inexhaustible demands
    for more 'security', meaning more insecurity for the Palestinians.

    Sonhouse, your voice will count more whenever you use it to correct the Americans who
    dehumanize the Palestinians or oppose the Americans who would deny Palestinians their rights.

    As a musician, you may be interested in this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edward_Said_National_Conservatory_of_Music

    "The Edward Said National Conservatory of Music ... is a Palestinian music conservatory
    with branches in Ramallah, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nablus and Gaza City."

    I know a Palestinian academic who helps raise money to support the ESNCM.
    As I recall, he made a trip to the West Bank to deliver donated musical instruments.
  10. Zugzwang
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    21 May '18 01:032 edits
    In another thread, the sneering troll No1Marauder (who never has met a Palestinian) surmised
    that I and my Palestinian 'egghead' (academic) friends (who No1Marauder apparently believes
    must know much less than he--reading the mainstream US media--about Palestinian lives)
    like to meet at Starbucks in order to reinforce one another's ignorance about Palestinian realities.

    Of course, No1Marauder was completely ignorant of Starbucks's bad reputation among
    pro-Palestinian activists on account of CEO Howard Schultz's zealous support of Israel.
    Some pro-Palestinian activists have (or had) called for a boycott of Starbucks.

    http://www.muslimtents.com/aminahsworld/boycott_starbucks.htm

    "BOYCOTT STARBUCKS: YOU MIGHT SAVE A LIFE IN PALESTINE"

    "Howard Schultz told a crowded temple of Jewish Americans on Seattle's Capitol Hill in April
    that the reasons behind the current conflict in the region fueled from “anti-Semitism”, blatantly
    ignoring the fact that Israeli non-compliance with international law calling on it to end its
    illegal occupation of Palestinian lands; the systematic assassinations and targeting of
    unarmed Palestinian men, women and children; and the besiegement of the chosen
    government of the Palestinian people are the fundamental reasons behind the conflict.
    He has also called on “every Jew in America” to rise up and defend Israel at any cost."

    "American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (Global Peace) calls on all people of
    conscience to boycott the Starbucks Coffee Company in order to send the message that
    one cannot delegitimize the Palestinian desire to achieve the right of freedom, and to
    defend themselves against attacks by asserting that the struggle is based on religious as
    opposed to political grounds. What Schultz has ignored is that Palestinians of both
    Muslim and Christian descent are being persecuted by Israel.

    “We are concerned that his [Schultz’s] statements exude Islamophobia and only seek to
    maintain the myth that the Palestinian struggle is against the Jewish people as opposed
    to being against an illegal occupation of land and an onslaught of aggression,” said
    Yousef al-Yousef, chairman of Global Peace."

    "Although a retraction was issued last week, the apology did not come from Schultz
    personally but was instead written on his behalf."

    Since that was written, Starbucks apparently has taken steps to disassociate itself from supporting Israel.
    So Starbucks has been removed from some official boycott (BDS) lists.

    Nonetheless, even if Starbucks's no longer pro-Israeli as a corporation, it's known that
    Howard Schultz remains extremely pro-Israeli, and that's enough reason for many
    pro-Palestinian activists to follow their individual consciences and prefer to spend their
    money elsewhere than at Starbucks. Does Starbucks serve real Arabic coffee?
  11. Zugzwang
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    21 May '18 01:121 edit
    An Israeli Jew (whose son, an Israeli soldier, was killed in action by Hamas) eloquently writes
    of his grief and despair, blaming Israel, not the Palestinian resistance, for his son's death.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/07/comment

    "I would have done the same [as the Palestinians did]
    My son was killed by a Palestinian fighter. But Israel's occupation is to blame for his death."
    --Yitzhak Frankenthal

    "We [Israelis] lost sight of our ethics long before the suicide bombings. ..
    My son Arik was born into a democracy with a chance for a decent, settled life.
    Arik's killer was born into an appalling occupation, into an ethical chaos. Had my son
    been born in his stead, he may have ended up doing the same. Had I myself been born
    into the political and ethical chaos that is the Palestinians' daily reality, I would certainly have
    tried to kill and hurt the occupier; had I not, I would have betrayed my essence as a free man.
    Let all the self-righteous who speak of ruthless Palestinian murderers take a hard look in
    the mirror and ask themselves what they would have done had they been the ones living
    under occupation. I can say for myself that I, Yitzhak Frankenthal, would have undoubtedly
    become a freedom fighter and would have killed as many on the other side as I possibly could."

    "My son Arik was murdered when he was a soldier by Palestinian fighters who believed in
    the ethical basis of their struggle against the occupation. My son Arik was not murdered
    because he was Jewish but because he is part of the nation that occupies the territory of another.
    I know these are concepts that are unpalatable, but I must voice them loud and clear,
    because they come from my heart - the heart of a father whose son did not get to live
    because his people were blinded with power.

    As much as I would like to do so, I cannot say that the Palestinians are to blame for my son's death.
    That would be the easy way out, but it is we, Israelis, who are to blame because of the occupation."

    "The Palestinians cannot drive us away - they have long acknowledged our existence.
    They have been ready to make peace with us; it is we who are unwilling to make peace with them.
    It is we who insist on maintaining our control over them; it is we who escalate the situation
    in the region and feed the cycle of bloodshed. I regret to say it, but the blame is entirely ours."

    Yitzhak Frankenthal (an Israeli Jew) says that, if he were a Palestinian, then he would take
    up arms and kill as many Israeli soldiers as he possibly could. He's an honest man.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    21 May '18 07:071 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    As an ethnocentric racist white American, No1Marauder apparently worships the (white-dominated)
    mainstream US media and seems willfully blind to its often dehumanizing stereotyping
    of various politically impotent minorities, including Arabs or Palestinians.

    "Jack G. Shaheen, an Arab American scholar, author and activist who devoted his
    career to ch ...[text shortened]... KKK (or other
    white supremacist groups) should have no influence at all upon white Americans.)
    An entire post of non sequiturs and outright lies which does not change the inaccuracy of your claim that I criticized.
  13. Zugzwang
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    21 May '18 21:331 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    An entire post of non sequiturs and outright lies which does not change the inaccuracy of your claim that I criticized.
    The lying troll No1Marauder has no option but to fall back upon his usual 'proofs by assertion'.
    (Would No1Marauder like to reconsider his earlier assertion that I am white?)

    My general point is that very few American politicians seem ready to take any significant
    political risks in challenging (occasional rhetoric is not enough) Israel's oppression of
    the Palestinians or the USA's practically unconditional support of that oppression.

    I can name a few American politicians (Jimmy Carter, Paul Findley, Pete McCloskey)
    who have condemned Israel's apartheid-like racism or the Israeli lobby in the USA,
    but their criticisms came mostly, if not entirely, only after their political careers were over.

    I hope this is enough to refute the lie (reiterated by No1Marauder and Mchill) that I regard
    ALL Americans as blind fanatical supporters of Israel.

    Can No1Marauder name any major active American politicians who declare their support
    for reducing or even eliminating the USA's lavish military and economic aid to Israel?
    Can No1Marauder even name any major active American politicians who are ready to
    condemn the Israeli lobby (AIPAC) in public? Can No1Marauder quote such condemnations?

    No1Marauder has been unable to answer these questions, so he keeps lying, of course.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    21 May '18 21:46
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The lying troll No1Marauder has no option but to fall back upon his usual 'proofs by assertion'.
    (Would No1Marauder like to reconsider his earlier assertion that I am white?)

    My general point is that very few American politicians seem ready to take any significant
    political risks in challenging (occasional rhetoric is not enough) Israel's oppression ...[text shortened]... nations?

    No1Marauder has been unable to answer these questions, so he keeps lying, of course.
    "Lying" about what? I don't see a single lie in any of my posts while you keep repeating many time after time. For example, even after I pointed out that I went to the largest pro-Palestinian demonstration held in North America you keep falsely insisting I never even met a Palestinian.

    Of course, all you have is lies, fake anecdotes and personal attacks. The fact that most of the Palestinian People disagree with you hardly even shows up on your radar; you think you know better than those peasants.

    You create a false dichotomy; it is not necessary for politicians or anyone else to insist on reducing and/or eliminating aid to Israel for them to believe that the Palestinians should get an independent, viable State.
  15. Zugzwang
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    21 May '18 22:101 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    "Lying" about what? I don't see a single lie in any of my posts while you keep repeating many time after time. For example, even after I pointed out that I went to the largest pro-Palestinian demonstration held in North America you keep falsely insisting I never even met a Palestinian.

    Of course, all you have is lies, fake anecdotes and personal att ...[text shortened]... aid to Israel for them to believe that the Palestinians should get an independent, viable State.
    "I don't see a single lie in any of my posts..."
    --No1Marauder

    The pathological liar No1Marauder NEVER has or will.

    The lying troll No1Marauder has no option but to fall back upon his usual 'proofs by assertion'
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