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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    06 Nov '17 21:21
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/06/woman-trump-middle-finger-fired-juli-briskman

    "Woman who gave Trump the middle finger fired from her job.
    Juli Briskman said marketing company bosses called her in and fired her."

    "Juli Briskman was cycling in Virginia last month when she offered the gesture in a
    gut reaction to Trump’s policies, she said."

    "She thought it best to alert the HR department to the online fuss. Bosses then called her into a meeting, she said.
    “They said, ‘We’re separating from you,’” Briskman told the Huffington Post. “‘Basically, you cannot
    have lewd or obscene things in your social media.’ So they were calling flipping him off obscene.”
    She said the company was displeased she had used the image as her profile picture on Twitter and Facebook,
    and told her it violated social media policy and could hurt the company’s reputation as a government contractor.
    Briskman said she pointed out that her social media pages do not mention her employer,
    and that the incident happened on her own time."

    "Virginia, however, has “at will” employment laws, meaning private-sector employers can fire people for any reason."

    "Briskman, who votes Democratic, said she planned to look for a new job with an advocacy
    group she believes in, such as Planned Parenthood or People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals."

    "As news of Briskman’s firing spread, many social media users asked why she was being penalized
    for expressing free speech on her own time, under the first amendment to the US constitution. "
  2. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    06 Nov '17 21:33
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/06/woman-trump-middle-finger-fired-juli-briskman

    "Woman who gave Trump the middle finger fired from her job.
    Juli Briskman said marketing company bosses called her in and fired her."

    "Juli Briskman was cycling in Virginia last month when she offered the gesture in a
    gut reaction to Trump’s policies, sh ...[text shortened]...
    for expressing free speech on her own time, under the first amendment to the US constitution. "
    Private employers are not bound by the First Amendment.

    A private company has every right to a policy that employees "cannot have lewd or obscene things on their social media" and every right to enforce it.

    Assuming the company had this policy in its documentation, she could absolutely be fired for cause in any state, at-will or not.
  3. Zugzwang
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    06 Nov '17 22:041 edit
    Originally posted by @sh76
    Private employers are not bound by the First Amendment.

    A private company has every right to a policy that employees "cannot have lewd or obscene things on their social media" and every right to enforce it.
    Assuming the company had this policy in its documentation, she could absolutely be fired for cause in any state, at-will or not.
    If a Russian had lost one's job after making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin, then
    would not some Americans here be accusing Russia of intolerance of free speech?

    "She [Juli Brinkman] also said another employee had written a profane insult about someone
    on Facebook, but had been allowed to keep his job after deleting the post and being reprimanded."

    Juli Brinkman apparently believes that it's unfair that her employer did not give her that option.

    "Briskman said she had no regrets about the attention her public show of displeasure received.
    In fact, she said, she was happy to be an image of protest."

    Perhaps Tom Steyer will offer a job to Juli Brinkman.
    Tom Steyer's a billionaire who has paid for ads calling for President Trump's impeachment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Steyer
  4. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    06 Nov '17 22:14
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    If a Russian had lost one's job after making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin, then
    would not some Americans here be accusing Russia of intolerance of free speech?

    "She [Juli Brinkman] also said another employee had written a profane insult about someone
    on Facebook, but had been allowed to keep his job after deleting the post and being repr ...[text shortened]... d for ads calling for President Trump's impeachment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Steyer
    ===If a Russian had lost one's job after making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin, then would not some Americans here be accusing Russia of intolerance of free speech?===

    Perhaps, but they'd be wrong, certainly if it were a private Russian company firing someone pursuant to a clearly stated policy.
  5. Joined
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    06 Nov '17 22:24
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/06/woman-trump-middle-finger-fired-juli-briskman

    "Woman who gave Trump the middle finger fired from her job.
    Juli Briskman said marketing company bosses called her in and fired her."

    "Juli Briskman was cycling in Virginia last month when she offered the gesture in a
    gut reaction to Trump’s policies, sh ...[text shortened]...
    for expressing free speech on her own time, under the first amendment to the US constitution. "
    so, your opinion is that free speech has consequences? yes, i agree with that.

    do you believe it was the right of that company to fire her just as it was her right to flip the baboon off?


    "As news of Briskman’s firing spread, many social media users asked why she was being penalized for expressing free speech on her own time, under the first amendment to the US constitution. "
    As news of Briskman's firing spread, manu social media users proved they have no idea what freedom of speech is.
  6. Zugzwang
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    06 Nov '17 22:25
    Originally posted by @sh76
    ===If a Russian had lost one's job after making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin, then would not some Americans here be accusing Russia of intolerance of free speech?===

    Perhaps, but they'd be wrong, certainly if it were a private Russian company firing someone pursuant to a clearly stated policy.
    What if it's a Russian employer who aimed to please Putin by terminating one of his critics?
  7. Joined
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    06 Nov '17 22:29
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    If a Russian had lost one's job after making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin, then
    would not some Americans here be accusing Russia of intolerance of free speech?

    "She [Juli Brinkman] also said another employee had written a profane insult about someone
    on Facebook, but had been allowed to keep his job after deleting the post and being repr ...[text shortened]... d for ads calling for President Trump's impeachment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Steyer
    "If a Russian had lost one's job after making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin,"
    the thing is, a Russian would have lost more than his job for making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin.

    that is why Russia doesn't have free speech and the US (for now) does.

    "She [Juli Brinkman] also said another employee had written a profane insult about someone on Facebook, but had been allowed to keep his job after deleting the post and being reprimanded."
    that was the company exercising THEIR freedom.

    "Juli Brinkman apparently believes that it's unfair that her employer did not give her that option."
    Thoroughly unfair. Completely legal. No different than a manager letting the tardiness of an employee he likes go unnoticed while penalizing someone they don't like.

    "Briskman said she had no regrets about the attention her public show of displeasure received. In fact, she said, she was happy to be an image of protest."
    good for her
  8. Zugzwang
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    06 Nov '17 22:29
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    so, your opinion is that free speech has consequences? yes, i agree with that.

    do you believe it was the right of that company to fire her just as it was her right to flip the baboon off?

    "As news of Briskman’s firing spread, many social media users asked why she was being penalized for expressing free speech on her own time, under the first amendmen ...[text shortened]... man's firing spread, manu social media users proved they have no idea what freedom of speech is.
    "Do you believe it was the right of that company to fire her just as it was her right to flip the baboon off?"
    --Zahlanzi

    Apparently according to Virginia's laws, her employer had that legal right.

    "Virginia, however, has “at will” employment laws, meaning private-sector employers can fire people for any reason."

    Let's suppose that the employee had campaigned in public--on her own time--against Donald Trump.
    Should the employer be able to terminate her under the 'at will' employment laws?
  9. Zugzwang
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    06 Nov '17 22:32
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    "If a Russian had lost one's job after making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin,"
    the thing is, a Russian would have lost more than his job for making a public gesture of disdain toward Putin.

    that is why Russia doesn't have free speech and the US (for now) does.

    "She [Juli Brinkman] also said another employee had written a profane insult ab ...[text shortened]... displeasure received. In fact, she said, she was happy to be an image of protest."
    good for her
    "No different than a manager letting the tardiness of an employee he likes go unnoticed
    while penalizing someone they don't like."
    --Zahlanzi

    How's that different from a white manager punishing a non-white employee while not
    punishing a white employee when both employees have done the same things?
  10. Joined
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    07 Nov '17 00:121 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    [b]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/06/woman-trump-middle-finger-fired-juli-briskman

    "She thought it best to alert the HR department to the online fuss”

    “They said, ‘We’re separating from you,’” Briskman told the Huffington Post. “‘Basically, you cannot have lewd or obscene things in your social media.’ So they were calling flipping him off obscene.”
    What made her alert her HR dept if she felt she’d done nothing wrong? Was she worried that she may have caused her company embarrassment?

    I’m under the impression that flipping off means F Off?
    I’d call that verbally abusive via a gesture, whoever it is addressed to?

    Wikipedia: In Western culture, the finger or the middle finger (as in giving someone the (middle) finger or the bird[1] or flipping someone off[1]) is an obscene hand gesture.

    I’d agree that her actions could hurt the company’s reputation. It could result in them losing a contract? It could result in the company having to lay off a lot of people? Did she give them a thought when she posted it in her twitter and Facebook account?
  11. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
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    07 Nov '17 00:28
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    [b}
    Let's suppose that the employee had campaigned in public--on her own time--against Donald Trump.
    Should the employer be able to terminate her under the 'at will' employment laws?[/b]
    Yes, if it is a condition of her employment.

    Employees can make the same demands, they might choose to cease their employment if they do not like the political views of their employers.

    You can keep adding 'what if's' and 'buts' tuning your scenarios in an endless stream of 'maybe this', 'maybe that', at the end of it if an employer is not happy with an employee for any reason they should be able to end the relationship (provided they abide by the terms of the original contract, if any) and that goes for employees too. Employers who make increasing demands and conditions on prospective employees will struggle to find good employees but that's their business. Employees who do the same will also find it difficult to find a good job that suits them, again, that's their business.

    If there is political pressure on a company to enforce certain conditions then you would have a point, because the pressure would be in the form of threats of force (something the goobermint has a franchise on)
  12. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
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    07 Nov '17 00:341 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64

    How's that different from a white manager punishing a non-white employee while not
    punishing a white employee when both employees have done the same things?
    No different from a manager with large feet punishing an employee with small feet while not punishing an employee with large feet when both employees have done the same things. Why people want to remain in a place of employment where they're not appreciated for whatever reason is beyond me, and vicey versey (that's latin BTW).
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    07 Nov '17 01:23
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    No different from a manager with large feet punishing an employee with small feet while not punishing an employee with large feet when both employees have done the same things. Why people want to remain in a place of employment where they're not appreciated for whatever reason is beyond me, and vicey versey (that's latin BTW).
    Maybe because they might starve to death otherwise?
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    07 Nov '17 01:30
    Originally posted by @sh76
    Private employers are not bound by the First Amendment.

    A private company has every right to a policy that employees "cannot have lewd or obscene things on their social media" and every right to enforce it.

    Assuming the company had this policy in its documentation, she could absolutely be fired for cause in any state, at-will or not.
    It seems a bit more complicated then most are assuming. The company gave as a reason: " could hurt the company’s reputation as a government contractor. "

    Can the government punish a company in the rewarding of contracts because of an employees' exercise of her free speech rights? Why doesn't this implicate First Amendment concerns?
  15. SubscriberWajoma
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    07 Nov '17 03:20
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Maybe because they might starve to death otherwise?
    People aren't owed employees anymore than people are owed employers.

    Should employees be barred from quiting a job because they disagree with their employers politics, they should be forced to continue working or be fined. If they refuse to pay the fine they should be jailed?
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