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  1. 03 Sep '10 22:11 / 1 edit
    AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – A well-known Australian Muslim cleric has called for the beheading of Dutch anti-Islamic politician Geert Wilders, a newspaper said on Friday.


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100903/wl_nm/us_dutch_wilders


    Perhaps it is better to say that a certain variety of Islam is a religion of pieces, human pieces that is.
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    03 Sep '10 22:19
    Originally posted by Eladar
    [b]AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – A well-known Australian Muslim cleric has called for the beheading of Dutch anti-Islamic politician Geert Wilders, a newspaper said on Friday.


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100903/wl_nm/us_dutch_wilders


    Perhaps it is better to say that a certain variety of Islam is a religion of pieces, human pieces that is.[/b]
    An anecdote, no matter how despicable, is never a reason to condemn a group of people, especially if that group of people should happen to have a billion members.
  3. 03 Sep '10 22:27
    Originally posted by sh76
    An anecdote, no matter how despicable, is never a reason to condemn a group of people, especially if that group of people should happen to have a billion members.
    He is a religious leader. Beheadings are a known practice among certain groups of Muslims. Notice I said certain variety of Islam. I did not say all. I did originally, but decided that wasn't right. I clarified that it is simply a sub group of Muslims who practice a relgion of pieces.
  4. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    03 Sep '10 22:29
    Originally posted by Eladar
    He is a religious leader. Beheadings are a known practice among certain groups of Muslims. Notice I said certain variety of Islam. I did not say all. I did originally, but decided that wasn't right. I clarified that it is simply a sub group of Muslims who practice a relgion of pieces.
    So your revised claim is that violent muslims are violent? Stop the presses.
  5. 03 Sep '10 22:32
    Originally posted by bbarr
    So your revised claim is that violent muslims are violent? Stop the presses.
    There are violent people who practice relgions. It appears that a certain variety of this relgion actually teaches violence.

    It is true that Christianity went through a similar period, but that period is long gone. It would only be the most extreme small number of people who would make a similar cry based on Christianity. The violent Islamic strain seems to be quite large.
  6. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    03 Sep '10 22:40
    Originally posted by Eladar
    There are violent people who practice relgions. It appears that a certain variety of this relgion actually teaches violence.

    It is true that Christianity went through a similar period, but that period is long gone. It would only be the most extreme small number of people who would make a similar cry based on Christianity. The violent Islamic strain seems to be quite large.
    O.K., so this is an empirical claim. You are claiming that a large proportion of the total muslim population is violent and/or teaches violence. Do you have any data to support this claim?
  7. 03 Sep '10 22:49 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    An anecdote, no matter how despicable, is never a reason to condemn a group of people, especially if that group of people should happen to have a billion members.
    What other large group of people support a religion which has so many prominent clerics who exhort their followers to kill ohers and have succeeded in persuading many of them to do so worldwide?
  8. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    03 Sep '10 23:09
    Originally posted by Sartor Resartus
    What other large group of people support a religion which has so many prominent clerics who exhort their followers to kill ohers and have succeeded in persuading many of them to do so worldwide?
    What proportion of prominent Islamic clerics advocate violence? Do you have any data on this?
  9. 03 Sep '10 23:49
    Originally posted by bbarr
    O.K., so this is an empirical claim. You are claiming that a large proportion of the total muslim population is violent and/or teaches violence. Do you have any data to support this claim?
    Look at the terrorists which it spawns. Look at the religious leaders that teach their followers to kill. Hard numbers? No. Muliple examples? Sure.
  10. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    03 Sep '10 23:56
    So, this politically conservative source...

    http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/jan/13/00029/

    ...claims that only about 1% of muslims are 'radical'. I'm assuming that not all radical muslims are actually violent, or even advocate violence against civilians. I'm also assuming that there are moderate muslims who do advocate violence (say, because, it was a U.S. plane that dropped a bomb on some kids, or a wedding, or a mosque, or whatever). But suppose that about 1% of muslims do, in fact, advocate violence as either a political tool or religious mandate. Do you sincerely think that this supports the claim that Islam is a violent religion?

    Now, I agree there is a threat that radical muslims pose. If this figure is even roughly correct, there are over ten million radical muslims. But the appropriate concern here is not with Islam, but with violent extremists. It seems to me that moderate muslims are in a much better position to understand and persuade their radical neighbors than we are. Don't you think that by painting Islam with such a broad brush you risk alienating some potentially very effective allies?
  11. 04 Sep '10 00:02 / 3 edits
    bbar,

    I have a question for you: Where is the Islamic outrage over what the guy has said? Where is he being shouted down?

    I think this is what bugs me the most about this kind of stuff. If a Christian had said anything like this you'd see Christians throughout the world shouting this guy down. The Islamic response seems to be, "I can see why he'd say that, I wouldn't, but if he wants to and someone puts it into action more power to them".


    Where are those allies right now? Why do they not speak out?

    ...claims that only about 1% of muslims are 'radical'. I'm assuming that not all radical muslims are actually violent, or even advocate violence against civilians.

    I don't think those qualifications really matter. The question is how many of them will prevent their fellow followers from committing acts of violence? How many of them will demand that their friends live within the framework of their countries and not attack other countries on their own?
  12. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Sep '10 00:09
    Originally posted by Eladar
    bbar,

    I have a question for you: Where is the Islamic outrage over what the guy has said? Where is he being shouted down?

    I think this is what bugs me the most about this kind of stuff. If a Christian had said anything like this you'd see Christians throughout the world shouting this guy down. The Islamic response seems to be, "I can see why he'd sa ...[text shortened]... ve within the framework of their countries and not attack other countries on their own?
    Isn't the condemnation of this kind of thing reported in the news sources you rely on?
  13. 04 Sep '10 06:41
    Originally posted by bbarr
    What proportion of prominent Islamic clerics advocate violence? Do you have any data on this?
    'Proportion' is irrelevant to my question which you have evidently failed to understand. So for your benefit I will rephrase it.

    How many other large groups of people support a religion which has any prominent clerics who exhort its followers to kill others, and have successfully persuaded many of them to do so worldwide?
    Name just one if you can.
  14. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    04 Sep '10 06:49
    Originally posted by Sartor Resartus
    'Proportion' is irrelevant to my question which you have evidently failed to understand. So for your benefit I will rephrase it.

    How many other large groups of people support a religion which has any prominent clerics who exhort its followers to kill others, and have successfully persuaded many of them to do so worldwide?
    Name just one if you can.
    This Sartor-bbarr discussion is interesting.
  15. 04 Sep '10 07:03
    So a bigoted moron called for the beheading of a bigoted moron? Well, let's give these people some more attention, shall we?