Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    16 Aug '17 19:00
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    A true democracy can get rid of a government the people don't like. Try getting rid of a democratic Islamic government and substituting a secular based one. I think they call that suicide. You would not even get to the point of starting your new political party. It would be squashed as soon as you went public.

    That would be like a western democracy allowing a political party to start with the avowed aim of turning it into a dictatorship.
    My point was only that non-Westerners (including Muslims) are capable of developing
    their own concepts of self-government. Non-Westerners are not passive receptacles
    depending only upon the Great White Teacher to fill their heads with 'wisdom'.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Aug '17 02:04
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    My point was only that non-Westerners (including Muslims) are capable of developing
    their own concepts of self-government. Non-Westerners are not passive receptacles
    depending only upon the Great White Teacher to fill their heads with 'wisdom'.
    That seems to be Finny's position; if the rebels in Libya espouse Natural Law principles of human rights it can only be a fraud to impress their "real" Western masters.
  3. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Aug '17 02:11
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    The Libyan Interim Transitional National Council, the internationally recognized government of Libya, has yet to estabish its ability to control the country against other, rival groups. The fact that it expresses its claims to legitimacy in language that earns Western support ought not to surprise us. The logic is circular.

    The complexity of Libyan ...[text shortened]... side the protection of our value system, and physical destruction is what we Westerners do best.
    We have explored your distorted view of Locke enough on this Forum; basically, you claim one thing and when presented with the actual words of Locke which say the opposite blather and insist he really didn't mean it. That is hardly rational discourse.

    That Muslims in Libya and elsewhere recognize the validity of Natural Law and human rights is to be expected; they are universal principles hardwired into our heads, espoused by Men but not invented by them.

    I can't ever remember relying on DeToqueville for anything, so you seem to be confusing me with someone else or just being confused generally.
  4. Zugzwang
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    17 Aug '17 02:231 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    That seems to be Finny's position; if the rebels in Libya espouse Natural Law principles of human rights it can only be a fraud to impress their "real" Western masters.
    I would not claim that I understand Finnegan's position completely
    It seems to me that Finnegan may be cautioning ethnocentric Westerners about assuming
    that when non-Westerners discuss 'human rights', for instance, in their cultural context,
    it must have the same meaning as when Westerners discuss it in their cultural context.
    It seems to me that Finnegan may be aware of Western overconfidence in assuming
    that they completely understand the nuances of non-Western thought in a different context.

    For instance, I have met Americans who told me that they know that the famous
    'Goddess of Democracy' statue in the 1989 Chinese student protests in Beijing's
    Tiananmen Square was intended to be an exact copy of the Statue of LIberty, showing
    that these students hoped that China would become a democracy exactly like the USA.
    This seems to be a popular misconception among Americans.

    It's untrue. Notwithstanding a superficial resemblance, Chinese sources confirm that
    the Goddess of Democracy statute was *not* designed as a copy of the Statue of Liberty.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy

    "The Goddess of Democracy, also known as the Goddess of Democracy and Freedom,
    the Spirit of Democracy,[1] and the Goddess of Liberty (自由女神; zìyóu nǚshén[1]),
    was a 10-meter-tall (33 ft) statue created during the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989."

    "While many people have noted its resemblance to the Statue of Liberty, a sculptor
    present during its construction, Tsao Tsing-yuan, has written that the students decided
    *not to model their statue on the Statue of Liberty* because they were concerned that
    it would be unoriginal and "too openly pro-American." Tsao further notes the influence
    on the statue of the work of Russian sculptor Vera Mukhina, associated with the school
    of revolutionary realism. Her piece Worker and Kolkhoz Woman was especially influential
    for their statue's head and facial features."
  5. Joined
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    17 Aug '17 13:50
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I'm sure many Libyans did back Gaddafi.

    And many did not and rose up against him, first in peaceful protest and when those were met with lethal force, by force of arms as they were morally justified to do.
    Gaddafi claims they were foreigners. Given that Libya had the highest standard of living in Africa at the time it seems unlikely that the Libyan people were ungrateful for that and would protest in anything but small numbers.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2011/02/2011225165641323716.html
  6. Zugzwang
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    17 Aug '17 20:011 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain to No1Marauder
    Gaddafi claims they were foreigners. Given that Libya had the highest standard of living in Africa at the time it seems unlikely that the Libyan people were ungrateful for that and would protest in anything but small numbers.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2011/02/2011225165641323716.html
    I have noticed many unwarranted or dubious assumptions by Westerners here about Libya.
    I have to say that Gaddafi's record seems to be a very complex and mixed one.
    I doubt that either unqualified praise or unqualified condemnation is warranted toward Gaddafi.

    One reason why Gaddafi is loathed by Libya's current rulers is that he embraced the concept
    that Libya's an African as well as an Arab society. In pursuit of his pan-Africanism, Gaddafi
    allowed many black Africans to live and work in Libya, which provoked resentment by native Arabs.

    "At the 20th century's end, Gaddafi—frustrated by the failure of his Pan-Arab ideals—increasingly
    rejected Arab nationalism in favour of Pan-Africanism, emphasising Libya's African identity.[266]
    From 1997 to 2000, Libya initiated cooperative agreements or bilateral aid arrangements
    with 10 African states,[267] and in 1999 joined the Community of Sahel-Saharan States.[268]
    In June 1999, Gaddafi visited Mandela in South Africa,[269] and the following month
    attended the OAU summit in Algiers, calling for greater political and economic integration
    across the continent and advocating the foundation of a United States of Africa.[270]
    He became one of the founders of the African Union (AU)"
    --Wikipedia

    "Given that Libya had the highest standard of living in Africa at the time it seems unlikely that
    the Libyan people were ungrateful for that and would protest in anything but small numbers."
    --Metal Brain

    "Unlike Tunisia or Egypt, Libya was largely religiously homogenous and had no strong
    Islamist movement, but there was widespread dissatisfaction with the corruption and
    entrenched systems of patronage, while unemployment had reached around 30%.[304]"
    --Wikipedia

    Many Libyans were more dissatisfied with their economy than MetalBrain assumes they were.
    I believe it's fairest to state that Gaddafi had both much popular support and popular opposition.

    "Both sides [in Libya's civil war] disregarded the laws of war, committing human rights abuses,
    including arbitrary arrests, torture, extrajudicial executions and revenge attacks."
    --Wikipedia

    I believe it's unfair to single out only Gaddafi's side as abusing human rights in Libya's civil war.

    "Qatar sent hundreds of troops to support the dissidents [against Qaddafi], and along
    with France and the United Arab Emirates provided the NTC with weaponry and training."
    --Wikipedia

    Foreign military intervention evidently was decisive in defeating Gaddafi in Libya's civil war.

    "Libyan society is to a large extent structured along tribal lines, with more than 20 major tribal groups."
    --Wikipedia

    Westerners here apparently fail to comprehend the extent to which Libya remains a
    loose coalition (at best) of (often feuding) tribes rather than an integrated modern state.
    Many Libyans presumably chose their sides in the civil war not so much on account of
    abstract principles as for more practical considerations such as their tribal leaders' allegiances.
    Could Gaddafi or the anti-Gaddafi side promise more patronage (bribes) to a tribal leader?
    That likely would determine which side he would urge his followers to join.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    17 Aug '17 22:361 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    My point was only that non-Westerners (including Muslims) are capable of developing
    their own concepts of self-government. Non-Westerners are not passive receptacles
    depending only upon the Great White Teacher to fill their heads with 'wisdom'.
    So its ok for a culture to pronounce women as lower than men and treat them like trash and not even allow them to drive cars and such and ISIS not allowing women to even be doctors even if they have MD's and Phds and ten years on an operating table, get out and make me coffee, us MEN will take out that brain tumor.....

    You have countries like Norway who never arrest people for possesion of drugs and if a criminal does a real crime, murder, rape and such, gets put in a prison where they are treated like human beings, living with dignity and not throttled daily by power crazed prison guards like in the US and China and other countries around the world.
    Just saying there are cultures clearly superior to other cultures and I am certainly NOT putting the US high on that list, the US sucks in many ways and now with that sociopath Trumpf giving the ok for KKK's and such to come out of the woodwork, they certainly are.
    The only saving grace of America is the worse offenders do get kicked out, if people on both sides the isle have had enough, he would be going back to "You're fired' on TV and trying to convince people he was right all along, everyone else was at fault and I was right.....
  8. Zugzwang
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    17 Aug '17 23:262 edits
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    So its ok for a culture to pronounce women as lower than men and treat them like trash and not even allow them to drive cars and such and ISIS not allowing women to even be doctors even if they have MD's and Phds and ten years on an operating table, get out and make me coffee, us MEN will take out that brain tumor.....

    You have countries like Norway who ...[text shortened]... rying to convince people he was right all along, everyone else was at fault and I was right.....
    The ignorant Sonhouse seems addicted to his favorite Islamophobic propaganda.
    How could Sonhouse's rant be related to my factual position that non-Western peoples
    (Muslims and non-Muslims) are capable of thinking for themselves about government?

    I have met and listened to what women from diverse Muslim societies have to say.
    Do they envy 'liberated' Western women? Well, it depends upon the issue and the woman.

    The status of women in predominantly Muslim societies is more complex than most Westerners assume.
    First of all, Islam is a multi-cultural faith, and there's much cultural variation in women's status.
    Islamophobic Westerners like to cherry pick Afghanistan under the Taliban and claim that
    it must represent every Islamic society in perpetuity.

    For centuries in the Ottoman Empire, women had more legal rights than in most of Christian Europe.

    "Lay women possessed a great deal of agency for the time period. Ottoman women,
    for example, could own property, and retained their property after marriage.
    They also had access to the justice system and could access a judge, as well as be taken to
    court themselves. By comparison, many married European women did not have this right,
    nor could they own property until the nineteenth or twentieth centuries."
    --Wikipedia

    Although sexism remains, women have grasped opportunities for higher education in Iran today.

    "While the vast majority of Iranian students who attend secondary school do not go on to
    study at a university, 42 percent of women who take the university entrance exams continue
    on to higher education, compared to 29 percent of males."
    --Wikipedia

    "By 1989, women dominated the entrance examinations for college attendance.[3]
    Women's participation in education has not slowed despite efforts to impose restrictions
    on the increasingly female-dominated educational sphere. The changes in women's
    education have split into increased usage and dominance of the opportunities available
    to women, and the imposition of strict requirements governing their role in education,
    including gender-segregated classes, Islamic dress, and the channeling of women into
    "feminine" majors that prevent the pursuit of certain careers."

    This "channeling of women into 'feminine' majors" may be compared to the prejudices of
    Western men (like James Damore), who believe that women are biologically unfit for high tech careers.

    "The UN Special Rapporteur noting in a 2015 report that significant discrimination against women
    still persists in the political and economic spheres, overshadowing the gains made in education.[26]
    The Special Rapporteur also noted that despite 14 recommendations made to alleviate
    the obstacles currently preventing equal gender attainment in the educational sphere,
    the Rouhani government rejected consideration of all of them."

    "Though education has been dominated in many fields by females, especially at the university level,
    it has not enabled women to enter the work force in comparative numbers.[5] Aside from
    having an empowering aspect for women, some scholars note increased schooling has
    yet to result in paid employment increases or roles in authoritative positions of employment."

    The success of women in Iran's universities has not directly translated into them holding
    positions of power in the workplace. That may be somewhat compared to the experiences of
    Asian Americans in the USA--'too' successful at university, excluded from power at work.

    "Some scholars have argued that education has contributed to female self-empowerment, giving
    women a task to achieve that is outside the home even if it does lead to viable employment.
    Survey evidence indicates that young educated Iranian women view education as important
    or very important to a female in Iranian society, more so than other members of Iranian society.[8]
    More of these educated youth also believe, more so than their non-educated and older female compatriots,
    that their daughters should marry following attendance of an institution of higher education."

    In Iran, higher education's changing the patterns of female life, such as marriage and motherhood.

    "Just saying there are cultures clearly superior to other cultures ..."
    --Sonhouse

    We await Sonhouse's detailed hierarchy of 'cultural superiority'.
  9. Joined
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    18 Aug '17 17:10
    I like what Maxine Waters had to say about North Korea.

    "North Korea gonna nuke us, then that Trump will get us into war"

    Priceless.
  10. Standard memberfinnegan
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    18 Aug '17 18:302 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I would not claim that I understand Finnegan's position completely
    It seems to me that Finnegan may be cautioning ethnocentric Westerners about assuming
    that when non-Westerners discuss 'human rights', for instance, in their cultural context,
    it must have the same meaning as when Westerners discuss it in their cultural context.
    It seems to me that Fin ...[text shortened]... ker and Kolkhoz Woman was especially influential
    for their statue's head and facial features."
    It seems to me that Finnegan may be cautioning ethnocentric Westerners about assuming that when non-Westerners discuss 'human rights', for instance, in their cultural context, it must have the same meaning as when Westerners discuss it in their cultural context.

    Correct, thanks. Spot on. [I'm too busy to write much just now but I can't improve on that anyway.]

    No1M has massive problems grasping that words have fluid meanings. Trying to interpret any statement out of context is risky and often facile.
  11. Standard memberfinnegan
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    18 Aug '17 18:361 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    That seems to be Finny's position; if the rebels in Libya espouse Natural Law principles of human rights it can only be a fraud to impress their "real" Western masters.
    Not at all. You need only infer that the group out of many groups likely to win Western backing is the one willing to employ language that Western backers approve.

    If they believe those words that is a bonus.

    If they understand those words to mean what Western backers imagine they mean, that is getting to be superb, but then we are driven to enquire just what do the western backers really imagine they mean.

    Sometimes, all that matters is the attitude to Western corporations controlling oil resources. The words are for public consumption.
  12. Joined
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    19 Aug '17 13:29
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I have noticed many unwarranted or dubious assumptions by Westerners here about Libya.
    I have to say that Gaddafi's record seems to be a very complex and mixed one.
    I doubt that either unqualified praise or unqualified condemnation is warranted toward Gaddafi.

    One reason why Gaddafi is loathed by Libya's current rulers is that he embraced the concept ...[text shortened]... to a tribal leader?
    That likely would determine which side he would urge his followers to join.
    Wkipedia is a horrible source of information hardly worth trusting. For example, the unemployment rate wikipedia lists is about 10% higher than the actual unemployment rate before Gaddafi was murdered.
  13. Zugzwang
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    24 Aug '17 20:26
    Originally posted by @Finnegan to Duchess64 who replied to No1Marauder
    It seems to me that Finnegan may be cautioning ethnocentric Westerners about assuming that when non-Westerners discuss 'human rights', for instance, in their cultural context, it must have the same meaning as when Westerners discuss it in their cultural context.

    Correct, thanks. Spot on. [I'm too busy to ...[text shortened]... have fluid meanings. Trying to interpret any statement out of context is risky and often facile.
    "Correct, thanks. Spot on."
    --Finnegan (to Duchess64)

    Finnegan confirms that I, unlike No1Marauder, correctly understood what Finnegan wrote.

    "No1M[arauder] has massive problems grasping that words have fluid meanings."
    --Finnegan

    No1Marauder often shows poor 'reading comprehension'. Much of it may be due to the
    lawyer No1Marauder's zealous inclination to 'read' only in order to take what he can of
    another writer's words and twist them into a ludicrous 'strawman' for No1Marauder to attack.
    The arrogant lawyer No1Marauder seems interested only in appearing to 'win' debates
    (in very gullible readers' minds) by whatever means, however dishonest or inflammatory.

    "Trying to interpret any statement out of context is risky and often facile."
    --Finnegan

    No1Marauder's an extremely arrogant ethnocentric American, who likes to project his pet
    "'Natural Law's an easy explanation for everything" opinions onto different cultural contexts.
    Some non-Western cultures may have developed their own concepts of 'Natural Law',
    but why should a Westerner presume that they must be the same as his or hers?
  14. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    24 Aug '17 21:15
    oxfordscholarship.com/mobile/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199579006.001.0001/acprof-9780199579006
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