Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    30 Jan '17 23:214 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Your first objection is a feeble semantic argument which seeks as its basis some kind of dissonant meaning of multiculturalism and attempting to make an argument based on the differences. Weak, very weak. Furthermore the article was generously peppered with examples which demonstrated admirably that rather than actually foment a multicultural socie ...[text shortened]... tle niche within a society but don't you dare call that integration for its nothing of the sort.
    The ambiguity of the term 'multiculturalism' is pointed out by your own source, from which I gave the relevant quote. Far from a weak semantic argument, it is fundamental, if you propose to enter a debate about the impact of 'multiculturalism'. Things that you and/or your source say are caused by multiculturalism, I say have different and better evidenced causes. Your examples of "communal violence" do not prove your point for just this reason. [Notice the first 14 examples are in the Conservative regime of 1979-97, while only one example is less than ten years ago. Bear in mind also the proven racism of the police, exposed since then as a major factor underlying most of these events. Consider only the Stephen Lawrence case.]

    The tin ear of our political establishment of whatever party affiliations is something on which we can agree. The examples given, by which for example New Labour issued diktats to "consult with" specified "communities", I have had plentiful personal experience of and I agree they were often cringingly absurd and agonisingly patronising. Perhaps the position of Baroness Warsi in the Conservative party gives a balancing example. If that is what you mean by 'multiculturalism' then we could shake on it and turn to another topic. But it is only one meaning of the term and for all its egregious errors, it was not responsible for the havoc and chaos implied by yourself and your source.

    When you write "The term “multicultural” has come to define both a society that is particularly diverse..." then proceed to complain that it has failed to produce a society that is "homogonous", I think you need to recognise that your are utterly confused. What makes us strong, dear boy, is not homogenous monotony and bland conformity, but rather the wealth that comes through the celebration of our diversity.

    As for "integration," that also requires more clarification (semantics to you). Integration requires actions by the majority on behalf of minorities. The responsibility of the state and its agencies is to ensure that all people are equal under the law. The evidence shows that this is not achieved and that there is a need to challenge public services until it is achieved. Actually, this is not multiculturalism at all. This is making the public services accountable in a democracy. That is where we want to see uniformity - in the equal enjoyment of our civil liberties and the benefits of social life.
  2. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    30 Jan '17 23:463 edits
    Originally posted by finnegan
    The ambiguity of the term 'multiculturalism' is pointed out by your own source, from which I gave the relevant quote. Far from a weak semantic argument, it is fundamental, if you propose to enter a debate about the impact of 'multiculturalism'. Things that you and/or your source say are caused by multiculturalism, I say have different and better evidenced ...[text shortened]... rant, bigoted and authoritarian. Many decent Christians would reject your intolerant attitudes.
    Did you seriously think that you could ignore the empirical evidence and get away with cheap personal insults and hyperbole? I am not the focus of debate. How you could have failed to grasp this most fundamental of logical precepts is difficult to explain for someone as erudite as you. Celebration of diversity? bwahaha, they are still signing the Soldiers song in the terraces of Parkhead and The Sash on the other side. Celebration of diversity? tell that to the Poles in England, the Romanians in Northern Ireland. What kind of Gaurdianesque hobbit fantasy world do you inhabit? It has failed.
  3. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    31 Jan '17 00:031 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Did you seriously think that you could ignore the empirical evidence and get away with cheap personal insults and hyperbole? I am not the focus of debate. How you could have failed to grasp this most fundamental of logical precepts is difficult to explain for someone as erudite as you. Celebration of diversity? bwahaha, they are still signing the ...[text shortened]... rthern Ireland. What kind of Gaurdianesque hobbit fantasy world do you inhabit? It has failed.
    Yes I can hear your loud proclamation. I just cannot agree that you have the necessary evidence.

    You invited us to read and comment on the article cited. I accepted your invitation. It does not stand up to critical reading.

    Incidentally, the sectarianism you describe in Glasgow football terraces also featured in Liverpool football for generations but you will find it has faded into insignificance. I had hoped Glasgow too might have progressed but defer to your local knowledge.
  4. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    31 Jan '17 00:073 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Did you seriously think that you could ignore the empirical evidence and get away with cheap personal insults and hyperbole? I am not the focus of debate. How you could have failed to grasp this most fundamental of logical precepts is difficult to explain for someone as erudite as you. Celebration of diversity? bwahaha, they are still signing the ...[text shortened]... rthern Ireland. What kind of Gaurdianesque hobbit fantasy world do you inhabit? It has failed.
    Where are the cheap personal insults in my post?

    Ah - yes I regretted that final phrase and deleted it but you seem to have it in your post. Take a deep breath and move on. Your point was noted and acted on before you even made it.

    Since you have republished it, however, it is legitimate to observe the point made there in the context of your bigoted and intolerant thread.
  5. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    31 Jan '17 00:141 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Did you seriously think that you could ignore the empirical evidence and get away with cheap personal insults and hyperbole? I am not the focus of debate. How you could have failed to grasp this most fundamental of logical precepts is difficult to explain for someone as erudite as you. Celebration of diversity? bwahaha, they are still signing the ...[text shortened]... rthern Ireland. What kind of Gaurdianesque hobbit fantasy world do you inhabit? It has failed.
    This kind of hobbit fantasy world is my world.

    https://www.facebook.com/ana.deechozoo/videos/247626435694449/

    Say it loud, say it clear
    Refugees are welcome here
  6. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12509
    31 Jan '17 01:09
    Originally posted by finnegan
    This kind of hobbit fantasy world is my world.

    https://www.facebook.com/ana.deechozoo/videos/247626435694449/

    Say it loud, say it clear
    Refugees are welcome here
    Why not go to their country and make it like yours?

    Why not improve their land?
  7. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    Joined
    31 Jan '04
    Moves
    57108
    31 Jan '17 05:10
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Why not go to their country and make it like yours?

    Why not improve their land?
    Well, we did.
    We called it imperialism, we called it globalisation, we call it regime change and we call it intervention.

    See how well it all wirked out?
  8. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    31 Jan '17 05:531 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    from a fascinating article looking at why multiculturalism has failed.

    Only in the late 1980s did the question of cultural differences become important. A generation that, ironically, is far more integrated and westernized than the first turned out to be the more insistent on maintaining its alleged distinctiveness. The reasons for this shift are ...[text shortened]... iculturalism.

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/failure-multiculturalism
    Monoculturalism does not have a stellar track record, either, especially when it has to be enforced. Geographic and economic isolationism as an accident of nature is no longer possible.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35902
    31 Jan '17 07:05
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Yes you did so with the rather silly attempt to use an anomaly to prove your point (Christians tend not to shoot up each others churches, just sayin). How ill conceived, how illogical, how devoid, how vacuous, how so intellectually dishonest!
    At least on Twitter, rambling lies are restricted to 140 characters.
  10. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    31 Jan '17 09:44
    Originally posted by JS357
    Monoculturalism does not have a stellar track record, either, especially when it has to be enforced. Geographic and economic isolationism as an accident of nature is no longer possible.
    Yes this is true but I am not proffering any solutions nor attempting to save the world. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that geographic and economic isolationism is possible. What the present administration seems to be the arguing is for a system in which strict regulations are applied to commerce and foreign relations.
  11. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    31 Jan '17 09:461 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    At least on Twitter, rambling lies are restricted to 140 characters.
    Cannot say I don't tweet sweetie, sorry. Perhaps its more designed for bumper sticker rhetoric like yours?
  12. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    31 Jan '17 10:18
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Yes this is true but I am not proffering any solutions nor attempting to save the world. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that geographic and economic isolationism is possible. What the present administration seems to be the arguing is for a system in which strict regulations are applied to commerce and foreign relations.
    What the present [US] regime is arguing for is the elements of a fascist coup, using Presidential powers to over-ride the rule of law.
  13. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    31 Jan '17 10:23
    Originally posted by finnegan
    What the present [US] regime is arguing for is the elements of a fascist coup, using Presidential powers to over-ride the rule of law.
    I disagree, I think its more akin to Japans isolation under the sakoku policy the aims of which were 'to acquire sufficient control over Japan's foreign policy to guarantee social peace'.
  14. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    31 Jan '17 10:35
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I disagree, I think its more akin to Japans isolation under the sakoku policy the aims of which were 'to acquire sufficient control over Japan's foreign policy to guarantee social peace'.
    You are simply ignoring all inconvenient evidence.

    If you wish to pursue such an unimaginative and euphemistic line of thought, let's have some evidence that is better than my evidence that Trump is working on the abuse of presidential powers to pursue a classically fascist agenda.
  15. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12509
    31 Jan '17 10:47
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Well, we did.
    We called it imperialism, we called it globalisation, we call it regime change and we call it intervention.

    See how well it all wirked out?
    I meant you do it now.

    Quit blaming others and actually do it right yourself.
Back to Top