Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    28 Nov '16 20:491 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi to Quackquack
    http://blog.nmai.si.edu/main/2013/11/do-indians-celebrate-thanksgiving.html

    i won't bother repeating, again and again, that i know what thanksgiving is about. i won't
    bother repeating that it's not about banning the holiday but making sure you also remember the full story while celebrating it. learning from it.
    Unlike many racist Americans here, Zahlanzi comprehends a main point of this thread.
    Many Americans still seem blind to the racism in Hollywood films that extol the white
    settlers as the virtuous heroes and demonize the native 'Indians' as bestial savages.

    The racist (and pathological liar) Quackquack already has long shown that he's incapable
    learning or tolerating the expression of historical facts that contradict his fanatical prejudices.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
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    29 Nov '16 02:31
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Thanksgiving has nothing to do with genocide. You can claim all you want to the contrary, but it is a nonreligious inclusive holiday. Whether or not you understand it, it's a holiday where people eat and spend time with family and friends. They watch and play sports. It is the best holiday the United States has to offer and once again I want to wish everyone a happy and healthy Thanksgiving.
    It is odd that Thanksgiving would now be considered a "nonreligious" holiday; the Pilgrims and Puritans certainly wouldn't have thought that. In addition, most Presidential proclamations declaring a "day of national thanksgiving" usually explicitly referred to religion as in Abraham Lincoln's 1863 one:

    Washington, D.C.
    October 3, 1863

    By the President of the United States of America.

    A Proclamation.

    The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

    As to the "debate" here, certainly the traditional story of the first Thanksgiving in the US that I was taught in grade school is an almost complete fabrication that should not be repeated to children or anybody else. However, it seems an interpretation of the holiday itself as celebrating genocide is a bit histrionic to say the least.
  3. Joined
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    29 Nov '16 04:10
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    It is odd that Thanksgiving would now be considered a "nonreligious" holiday; the Pilgrims and Puritans certainly wouldn't have thought that. In addition, most Presidential proclamations declaring a "day of national thanksgiving" usually explicitly referred to religion as in Abraham Lincoln's 1863 one:

    Washington, D.C.
    October 3, 1863

    By the Presi ...[text shortened]... terpretation of the holiday itself as celebrating genocide is a bit histrionic to say the least.
    Today's Godless society is as adept as the Catholic church at adapting its enemy's holidays and making it their own.
  4. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    29 Nov '16 04:182 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder to Quackquack
    It is odd that Thanksgiving would now be considered a "nonreligious" holiday; the Pilgrims and Puritans certainly wouldn't have thought that. In addition, most Presidential proclamations declaring a "day of national thanksgiving" usually explicitly referred to religion as in Abraham Lincoln's 1863 one:

    Washington, D.C.
    October 3, 1863
    ...[text shortened]... terpretation of the holiday itself as celebrating genocide is a bit histrionic to say the least.
    "...the tradtional story of the first Thanksgiving in the US .. is an almost complete fabrication."
    --No1Marauder

    My point is that traditional stories ('feel good' ) about the relations between white settlers
    and natives tend to obscure, minimize, or excuse the essential racism in their relations.

    "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."
    --attributed to Philip Sheridan (who denied saying it)

    "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe
    nine out of every ten are. And I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth."
    --Theodore Roosevelt (1886)

    "It seems an interpretation of the holiday itself as celebrating genocide is a bit histrionic .."
    --No1Marauder

    Although some trolls may like to put those words into my mouth, I never wrote that.
    My position is *not* that 'Thanksgiving celebrates genocide'. My position is that it's
    a holiday celebration that blithely ignores or obscures the tragic fate of native peoples.
    There's a difference between celebrating an atrocity and blithely ignoring its victims.

    I believe that few white Americans today (in contrast to the many who did in the 19th century)
    would actually *celebrate* the genocide of 'Indians'. But few white Americans today
    have the moral honesty to face all the racism in US history, including the genocide of 'Indians'.
    Many Americans apparently prefer to embrace a 'whitewashed' version of history in which
    America was entirely built by white settlers bringing their Christian civilization and racial superiority.
  5. Joined
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    55785
    29 Nov '16 14:25
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Unlike many racist Americans here, Zahlanzi comprehends a main point of this thread.
    Many Americans still seem blind to the racism in Hollywood films that extol the white
    settlers as the virtuous heroes and demonize the native 'Indians' as bestial savages.

    The racist (and pathological liar) Quackquack already has long shown that he's incapable
    learning or tolerating the expression of historical facts that contradict his fanatical prejudices.
    Duchess once again cannot distinguish between not understanding something and understanding that something is completely false. Thanksgiving isn't a holiday about what happened to Native Americans and as much as you want to make it into another evil white man discussion you are once again simply wrong.
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