Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
    15 Aug '12
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    04 Mar '16 00:002 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Soothfast and Vistesd are academics (whom I both respect) who have written that they
    sometimes have wasted more time posting than they should because they have become
    very emotionally involved in various issues (lately, Hillary Clinton vs Bernie Sanders).
    I may be more affected than white men here by the thriving racism and sexism in this forum.
    I may ...[text shortened]... and
    so he seems strongly predisposed to disregard evidence of their lying and other wrongdoing.
    You give yourself away.

    From what I recall of his earlier posts, King Tiger's a very conservative American man
    whose ideological sympathies seem strongly with other conservative American men and
    so he seems strongly predisposed to disregard evidence of their lying and other wrongdoing


    You are ungenerous. I may be a conservative (I would not define myself as very conservative) yet it does not mean I am predisposed to disregard any lying or wrongdoing. However, you are not in a position to draw a character sketch of me. You cite two other academics. Fine. Doesn't change what I say. It just shows how this can become a waste of time and jargon as your own posts adequately displays.

    As an MD I spend considerable hours working at a crisis pregnancy center working often with rape victims. I actually have a tremendous soft spot in my heart for such individuals and I do not need a lecture from you on the subject. You might thank individuals like myself who leave the realm of mere academic discourse and actually put their skills to real use.

    I'll straight up ask you-have you ever actually done more than talk about rape as an issue in America and actually worked in the mud with the victims of rape? If so, good for you. But don't accuse me of being predisposed to disregard evidence of lying and wrongdoing when you know almost nothing about me, Duchess64.

    As for my supposed sympathies by you, I have not read these other 'conservative American men' so I could not speak to their motives or beliefs. Therefore, I have no sympathies either way at the moment.

    Take your ad hominum and ego centric attacks somewhere else. They will not bother me nor elicit a like response from me, rather shame on you for your academically egregious behavior. You assumed before you had any facts. Makes me question you seriously. At least your motives. You seem to thrive at ridiculing those who 'disagree' with you. I suggest a new line of work. You could try to make allies with 'conservative American men'. Or does that whole category annoy you so much that it is impossible in your mind for any of us to be any good?
  2. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
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    04 Mar '16 00:295 edits
    Originally posted by King Tiger
    You give yourself away.

    From what I recall of his earlier posts, King Tiger's a very conservative American man
    whose ideological sympathies seem strongly with other conservative American men and
    so he seems strongly predisposed to disregard evidence of their lying and other wrongdoing


    You are ungenerous. I may be a conservative (I ...[text shortened]... hole category annoy you so much that it is impossible in your mind for any of us to be any good?
    "...it does not mean I am predisposed to disregard any lying or wrongdoing."
    --KingTiger

    KingTiger's earlier post *seemed* to imply that he believed that what I wrote about some
    other writers being 'pathological liars' was a baseless insult, meaning that he assumed
    that there was no evidence (or at least not enough evidence) of them having lied.
    There's ample evidence that many writers here routinely lie, often reiterating the same lies.

    King Tiger apparently misunderstands what's meant by 'rape culture' or a culture of 'rape apology'.
    For one thing, it's applicable *before* a woman has been impregnated by rape (as in KingTiger's anecdote).

    "...working at a crisis pregnancy center..."
    --KingTiger

    While I don't have specific information about that particular one, I know that an American
    'crisis pregnancy center' tends to be run by 'pro-life' advocates whose aim is to dissuade
    women from exercising their legal right to choose abortion. Crisis pregnancy centers
    have been criticized for misrepresenting the facts about abortion or laws about abortion.
    (I am not claiming that I know that King Tiger has misrepresented facts.) So while crisis
    pregnancy centers may offer free care to some women, it comes with an ideological agenda.
    *Some* 'pro-lilfe' advocates don't seem above using bullying tactics of deception in order
    to frighten ignorant women into not having abortions.

    I have participated (along with professionals in the field) in groups supporting rape victims.

    "You could try to make allies with conservative American men."
    --King Tiger

    I believe that women have the right to choose to have abortions (of pre-viable fetuses).
    Most conservative American men firmly believe that women should not have that right.
    So upon what basis could a 'compromise' be possible? How could there be a 'half-right'?
    I do not believe that most conservative American men have women's best interests at heart.
    And it seems to me that most American women would agree with my position.
  3. Joined
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    04 Mar '16 00:521 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "...it does not mean I am predisposed to disregard any lying or wrongdoing."
    --KingTiger

    KingTiger's earlier post *seemed* to imply that he believed that what I wrote about some
    other writers being 'pathological liars' was a baseless insult, meaning that he assumed
    that there was no evidence (or at least not enough evidence) of them having lied.
    Th ...[text shortened]... right.
    So upon what basis could a 'compromise' be possible? How could there be a 'half-right'?
    "...it does not mean I am predisposed to disregard any lying or wrongdoing."
    --KingTiger


    I was questioning why you would continue to bother posting to individuals without sense in your view.

    Crisis pregnancy centers do offer alternatives other than abortion-keeping the child or adoption. I do not want to get into a pro-choice or pro-life debate with you. Simply-yes, in America abortion is a legal right. I do not believe ideologically and professionally it should be a legal right. As a Christian medical doctor, I believe the unborn child is a human being with full status as a human being. Therefore, the choice to keep the child is not a choice myself or the mother or father have. It shouldn't even come to the table as an option.

    Are you a medical doctor? If no, then professionally you are not my peer to discuss this topic unless you have some other parallel field of study? It has for a long time been known in the medical field the fetus is biological life.Much has changed since 1973. Thankfully the number of abortions in the US are falling. Means our work is being accomplished. See first link for stats on it from 2011. I'm not going to search too hard for a more recent stat, but I know it is falling. This is my field afterall.

    I have participated in prenatal surgeries with Michael Harrison-I've never had such a beautiful experience in my life. Some years ago a prenatal surgery was done where the child reached out and grabbed the surgeon's finger [see link at bottom of post to see the picture]. This was at 21 weeks. Not that long ago it was legal to abort babies at that point in the pregnancy. I pray and hope one day it is illegal at any point.

    Are you suggesting that Planned Parenthood Clinics don't have an ideological agenda???

    I have many friends who are not ideologically what I am. Yet, we remain civil to one another. I believe in decency and being decent. Surely you do as well?

    Link to stats- http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2014/02/03/

    Link to the picture- http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/thehand.asp scroll about 1/3 down the page to see it.

    On a personal note-when I was interested in medicine I chose Pediatrics and Fetal Surgery as my specializations. Why? I enjoy working with children and I believe firmly abortion is a crime against humanity that must be stopped professionally and ideologically . I have in my life alone, seen hundreds of young mothers choose to keep their child. I have never once had a young mother come back to me angry that she did. I have had young mothers come back to me angry that they didn't keep their child.
  4. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    04 Mar '16 01:192 edits
    Originally posted by King Tiger
    "...it does not mean I am predisposed to disregard any lying or wrongdoing."
    --KingTiger


    I was questioning why you would continue to bother posting to individuals without sense in your view.

    Crisis pregnancy centers do offer alternatives other than abortion-keeping the child or adoption. I do not want to get into a pro-choice or ...[text shortened]... that she did. I have had young mothers come back to me angry that they didn't keep their child.
    I may follow KingTiger's earlier 'advice' and accept that it would be a waste of time to
    communicate any further with him about the issues of abortion, law, and women's health.

    I think it's extremely arrogant for KingTiger to argue that only another 'medical doctor'
    should be able to form a judgment about whether (or when) a fetus is a form of human life
    deserving the same (or similar) legal protections that a living baby should have after birth.
    I also believe that KingTiger has made questionable statements on behalf of his profession.
    Many 'medical doctors' are pro-choice on abortion, and some of them perform abortions.
    Most 'medical dcctors' don't share KingTiger's evident Christian fundamentalist beliefs.

    "I pray and hope one day it (abortion) is illegal at any point."
    --KingTiger

    I assume that KingTiger meant 'at *every* point' of pregnancy.
    KingTiger has taken an absolute position against abortion.
    I foresee no possibility of compromise with his extreme position.
    And I note that KingTiger prefers to deny that he's 'very conservative'!
  5. Joined
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    04 Mar '16 01:406 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I may follow KingTiger's earlier 'advice' and accept that it would be a waste of time to
    communicate any further with him about the issues of abortion, law, and women's health.

    I think it's extremely arrogant for KingTiger to argue that only another 'medical doctor'
    should be able to form a judgment about whether (or when) a fetus is a form of human l ...[text shortened]... his extreme position.
    And I note that KingTiger prefers to deny that he's 'very conservative'.
    It may well be a waste for us to continue to discuss, yes.

    Not arrogant. If you were sitting with your daughter in my office (if you have one) and she was needing a surgery to be performed on her unborn child, I would think you ridiculous if you thought yourself my peer to discuss the procedures. Unless you have some parallel field of study, I and my profession would not recognize you as a peer authority to discuss these matters. Simple as that. I am not qualified to discuss with a civil engineer the merits of a bridge design. Neither is he peer qualified to discuss the biological nature of the fetus. Pretty simple and straightforward.

    I do mean at every point of pregnancy. The biological continuity of life would demand this view.

    Many medical doctors are pro-choice. This is true. However, their convictions seem to lie not so much with their profession (which swears by the Hippocratic Oath to do no harm to their patients, "I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice" ) but rather with their ideology.

    I have sat on an ethics committee once where it came down to moral conviction and not intellectual conviction. I roughly quote, "I believe in the right to choose more than the viability of the life of the fetus". This, ironically was made by liberal woman.

    I agree, rape apologists need an exercise in empathy. Yet, pro-choice advocates need an exercise in empathy as well. There are such things as evil in this world, and I have seen it face to face when encountering peer medical doctors who advocate abortion not on its biological merits but rather political merits. The simple truth is, Planned Parenthood makes money from abortions, not the abortions so much themselves but the selling of the human tissues and organs. I have personally had a peer physical admit the biological viability of the fetus as life as early as 6 weeks old in the pregnancy in a professional setting and then go and publicly support abortion at this young of an age. Something is wrong here, and I will go ahead and say this for shock. You Duchess64 seem to partake of the exact same apathy that you wish 'rape apologists' wouldn't, yet your target is victims of rape, but not murder.....

    I remember sitting listening to the congressional hearings over Planned Parenthood and the allegations and hearing Alisa Snow defend her untenable position. It was truly shocking. There are such things as evil in the world, yes.

    See the link here- YouTube&ab_channel=YouHotNews[/youtube]

    seems the link isn't working. Here is the url : YouTube&ab_channel=YouHotNews

    This is my last posting. I don't expect to be able to reason with you any more than I could with Alisa Snow. Yet, hopefully there are some readers of this forum that realize the world isn't as Duchess64 believes or wants it to be.
  6. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
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    04 Mar '16 03:43
    Originally posted by King Tiger
    It may well be a waste for us to continue to discuss, yes.

    Not arrogant. If you were sitting with your daughter in my office (if you have one) and she was needing a surgery to be performed on her unborn child, I would think you ridiculous if you thought yourself my peer to discuss the procedures. Unless you have some parallel field of study, I and my ...[text shortened]... some readers of this forum that realize the world isn't as Duchess64 believes or wants it to be.
    Contrary to what King Tiger wrote, I have *not* been claimed that a 'medical doctor'
    lacks authority in discussing technical aspects of medical procedures (including abortion).
    I am saying that deciding that pre-viable fetus must be a human being deserving the
    same (or similar) legal protections as a baby after birth is something that involves
    considering much more than some technical aspects. It involves considering legal
    and philosophical issues in which a 'medical doctor' has no particular expertise.

    "Planned Parenthood makes money from abortions ...but the selling of the human tissues and organs."
    --King Tiger

    If I recall correctly, King Tiger's claim (or a similar claim) already has been made by some
    'pro-life' right-wing Americans (Whodey?) here and already been sufficiently addressed.

    "...but not murder."
    --King Tiger

    Most Americans disagree with King Tiger that abortion constitutes murder.

    I am relieved not to share King Tiger's extreme Christian fundamentalist view of the world.
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