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  1. 08 Apr '16 23:10 / 1 edit
    Excellent argument for profiling by police:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KQKZqd9q_A
  2. 09 Apr '16 00:44
    And an actual security expert on why such profiling is neither common sense nor effective. [or ethical]

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/07/profiling.html

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/02/racial_profilin.html

    https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2010/01/profiling_makes_us_l.html

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/05/the_trouble_wit.html

    The tl:dr version is that the vast majority of almost any group [and certainly all those we can easily
    profile] are not criminals and so any profiling effort will result in targeting huge numbers of false
    positives. In addition, criminals really do come from all ages, ethnicities, and genders, and thus
    any group that is subject to less scrutiny automatically gets a free pass on committing crimes.
    [I note here the amount of research that shows that in many places white people are equally or more
    likely than black to be carrying drugs but that black people are massively disproportionally stopped,
    arrested, and charged for carrying drugs... because they are profiled as being more likely to be
    carrying drugs. http://www.vox.com/2015/5/6/8558835/baltimore-social-mobility-race ]

    The result is that profiling as described performs worse than random checking, while having
    a bunch of negative side effects and being immoral.
    It should be, and remain, illegal.
  3. 09 Apr '16 01:02
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    And an actual security expert on why such profiling is neither common sense nor effective. [or ethical]

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/07/profiling.html

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/02/racial_profilin.html

    https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2010/01/profiling_makes_us_l.html

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archi ...[text shortened]... having
    a bunch of negative side effects and being immoral.
    It should be, and remain, illegal.
    Gee I guess you didn't bother to watch the video at all did you?
  4. 09 Apr '16 12:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Gee I guess you didn't bother to watch the video at all did you?
    No, the problem is not that I didn't watch the video, the problem is that the contents
    of the video are wrong.

    I responded with considered articles on exactly this topic from a world renowned security
    expert who explains in detail exactly why such 'profiling' does not and indeed cannot work.

    Did you read ANY of those articles?


    EDIT: I would also like to note that you're source, far from being a security expert, is listed
    as a white supremacist by the Southern Poverty Law Centre.
    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/jared-taylor
  5. 09 Apr '16 12:55 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    No, the problem is not that I didn't watch the video, the problem is that the contents
    of the video are wrong.

    I responded with considered articles on exactly this topic from a world renowned security
    expert who explains in detail exactly why such 'profiling' does not and indeed cannot work.

    Did you read ANY of those articles?


    EDIT: I woul ...[text shortened]... rty Law Centre.
    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/jared-taylor
    I read the fist article, it was total crap. Some liberal douche that took too many sociology classes in college and never spent a day as a street cop making himself feel better by crying about the evils of profiling.
  6. 09 Apr '16 13:05
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    I read the fist article, it was total crap. Some liberal douche that took too many sociology classes in college and never spent a day as a street cop making himself feel better by crying about the evils of profiling.
    I'll take the word of a sociology professor over a street cop on whether or not profiling works any day. Street cops are typically street cops because they lack the education to be desk cops.
  7. 09 Apr '16 13:07
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I'll take the word of a sociology professor over a street cop on whether or not profiling works any day. Street cops are typically street cops because they lack the education to be desk cops.
    Great if you ever get mugged I hope there's a sociology professor on hand to help you out.
  8. 09 Apr '16 13:08
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    I read the fist article, it was total crap. Some liberal douche that took too many sociology classes in college and never spent a day as a street cop making himself feel better by crying about the evils of profiling.
    Yes because it's just that easy to dismiss the arguments of one of the worlds leading
    security experts talking about a subject he is an expert in...

    Wow are you stupid and bigoted.

    Do you want to provide any actual argument to counter his, or do you just want to produce
    ad hominems?
  9. 09 Apr '16 13:10
    https://www.schneier.com/blog/about/

    About Bruce Schneier

    Bruce Schneier is an internationally renowned security technologist, called a "security guru" by The Economist. He is the author of 13 books--including Data and Goliath: The Hidden Battles to Collect Your Data and Control Your World--as well as hundreds of articles, essays, and academic papers. His influential newsletter "Crypto-Gram" and his blog "Schneier on Security" are read by over 250,000 people. He has testified before Congress, is a frequent guest on television and radio, has served on several government committees, and is regularly quoted in the press. Schneier is a fellow at the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School, a program fellow at the New America Foundation's Open Technology Institute, a board member of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an Advisory Board Member of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, and the Chief Technology Officer at Resilient, an IBM Company.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Schneier
  10. 09 Apr '16 13:16
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Great if you ever get mugged I hope there's a sociology professor on hand to help you out.
    And I'll take the word of a sociology professor or a street cop over your word any day given that really really stupid reply.
  11. 09 Apr '16 13:16
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    https://www.schneier.com/blog/about/

    About Bruce Schneier

    Bruce Schneier is an internationally renowned security technologist, called a "security guru" by The Economist. He is the author of 13 books--including Data and Goliath: The Hidden Battles to Collect Your Data and Control Your World--as well as hundreds of articles, essays, and academ ...[text shortened]... gy Officer at Resilient, an IBM Company.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Schneier
    He's an electronic security technologist ?
    Oh hell then he must know what being a cop is like.
    Put him in a uniform and have him spend a year on the street and see how he feels about profiling and why it doesn't work.
  12. 09 Apr '16 13:27
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    He's an electronic security technologist ?
    Oh hell then he must know what being a cop is like.
    Put him in a uniform and have him spend a year on the street and see how he feels about profiling and why it doesn't work.
    Your particular superstitions, while probably honestly felt, do not have the power to trump reality no matter how much you wish for reality to be different from what it is.
  13. 09 Apr '16 13:29
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    He's an electronic security technologist ?
    Oh hell then he must know what being a cop is like.
    Put him in a uniform and have him spend a year on the street and see how he feels about profiling and why it doesn't work.
    The reason profiling doesn't and can't work is because of the maths.

    As I outlined in my tl:dr explanation, and as explained in detail in the articles I linked
    which included the research that backs them up, the proportion of people in any easily
    profiled group [for things like ethnicity, age, gender] that are actually criminals is vastly
    less than the proportion that do not commit crimes. And in addition there is no group
    that doesn't commit crimes. Basic probability theory then tells you that profiling in
    those circumstances will be ineffective. And real world tests bare that out.

    I also linked to research showing the harmful effects of profiling on a black community
    where young poor black kids got arrested and charged with crimes [and felt worse effects
    from that] than poor white kids in the same area despite the fact that both groups committed
    crimes at roughly the same rates. Not only did profiling not help in that situation, it made things
    worse.


    The problem is that this math is not intuitive, almost everyone gets it wrong without training.
    Cops do not get this training and they are also often so deep in that they can't see the woods
    for the trees. You NEED an outside perspective to take in the bigger picture.

    I also point out that the work showing profiling doesn't work is well establish and uncontroversial in
    the field. I am not citing a lone voice or a small group, I am citing a leading expert in the mainstream.


    You on the other hand are citing the word of a known racist white supremacist with no expertise
    whatsoever.
  14. 09 Apr '16 13:35 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    The reason profiling doesn't and can't work is because of the maths.

    As I outlined in my tl:dr explanation, and as explained in detail in the articles I linked
    which included the research that backs them up, the proportion of people in any easily
    profiled group [for things like ethnicity, age, gender] that are actually criminals is vastly
    less t ...[text shortened]... her hand are citing the word of a known racist white supremacist with no expertise
    whatsoever.
    LOL "profiling doesn't work because of the maths"
    Watch the video.
    You can't possibly have watched the video.
    Concrete examples of how it DOES work are given.
  15. 09 Apr '16 13:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Watch the video.
    You can't possibly have watched the video.
    No, I've watched the video, in full.

    It was painful.

    Again, the problem isn't that I haven't watched it, the problem is that it's wrong.