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31 Jan '10 00:59

AbleHeart Too
Int'l GrandMasher
Land of Nod
Joined
25 Jan '09
Moves
100067
31 Jan '10 00:59
I am playing in an ongoing tournament and noticed the top player has been banned from RHP. What is the cause of this ? I have seen it before and am curious why this happens.

Ableheart Too
Kewpie
since 1-Feb-07
Australia
Joined
20 Jan '09
Moves
385992
31 Jan '10 01:28
Originally posted by AbleHeart Too
I am playing in an ongoing tournament and noticed the top player has been banned from RHP. What is the cause of this ? I have seen it before and am curious why this happens.

Ableheart Too
Because their games have been tested against appropriate engines and it's been decided that they had engine assistance in their games. When they used to publish the banned list, it showed up as TOS clause 3(b).
AbleHeart Too
Int'l GrandMasher
Land of Nod
Joined
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Moves
100067
31 Jan '10 04:12
How can it be determined if a player has gained assistance from a chess program ?
I mean a good move is a good move. The clever player would simply make a mediocre move occasionally, to thwart any determination of wrongdoing. I am not saying computer assistance can't be discerned. I am just curious how it is done.
Even if certain position based moves occur more frequently in chess program responses, who is to say it's not a human player who has learned from studying computer play ?

Abel Hart 2
Kewpie
since 1-Feb-07
Australia
Joined
20 Jan '09
Moves
385992
31 Jan '10 05:49
There's a standard process which chooses games according to a set criteria, then applies "top 3 matches" tests. If you dig through no1marauder's old forum posts you'll find a lot of the test process explained. It's a big task and not done without a lot of other clues, such as dramatic rating increases.
randolph
the walrus
an English garden
Joined
15 Jan '08
Moves
32836
31 Jan '10 06:56
Originally posted by AbleHeart Too
How can it be determined if a player has gained assistance from a chess program ?
I mean a good move is a good move. The clever player would simply make a mediocre move occasionally, to thwart any determination of wrongdoing. I am not saying computer assistance can't be discerned. I am just curious how it is done.
Even if certain position based moves ...[text shortened]... is to say it's not a human player who has learned from studying computer play ?

Abel Hart 2
Basically, computers play so differently from humans that if somebody has above 90% of their moves matching a computer's top 3 move choices it is certain that they are cheating.
KingDavid403
King David
Planet Earth.
Joined
19 May '05
Moves
167448
31 Jan '10 12:571 edit
Originally posted by AbleHeart Too
I am playing in an ongoing tournament and noticed the top player has been banned from RHP. What is the cause of this ? I have seen it before and am curious why this happens.

Ableheart Too
The player also could have been banned for other reasons than cheating. Such as harassment of other players, or multiple accounts, etc. We don't know for sure anymore since the banned players list has been removed. The banned players list use to tell you what they were banned for. I think it would be nice if the list was brought back.
AbleHeart Too
Int'l GrandMasher
Land of Nod
Joined
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100067
31 Jan '10 14:39
once read that Deep Thought ( dated, I know...) had access to records of thousands of GM level tournament games and would base it's response in active play based on the congruence of the current game to these record(s), i.e., it "played" just like the best human players.
KingDavid403
King David
Planet Earth.
Joined
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Moves
167448
31 Jan '10 15:371 edit
Originally posted by AbleHeart Too
once read that Deep Thought ( dated, I know...) had access to records of thousands of GM level tournament games and would base it's response in active play based on the congruence of the current game to these record(s), i.e., it "played" just like the best human players.
The game mods have almost all chess engines on the market downloaded on Fritz or some other similar program. They then run games played threw fritz or the similar program, to see what moves match engines and which ones. It's very clear to them when all your moves match a certain engine, every move, or even 80% or 90% of the time that you're cheating, and using that particular engine in that game or games.
Even if all your moves match all moves of say one, two, or even three different engines that then, you're still cheating.
They don't just find one game that matches one engine 90% of the time and then ban you. It has to be a consistent pattern of matching engines that let's them know you're cheating. They say by the time they ban you that their 99.99% for sure that someone is cheating. I hope this helps ease your mind on this issue.

I don't understand why anyone would use a engine. You're not playing chess. The engine is. What a waste of time to I. It's hard for me to be leave that people are so concerned about being the best at something. But hundreds if not thousands still cheat to win. Very silly to me.
AbleHeart Too
Int'l GrandMasher
Land of Nod
Joined
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Moves
100067
03 Feb '10 15:51
Kasparov has advocated the so called Hyper Chess where human opponents match off with chess computer assistance. It could be interesting, like horse racing.
I match my mind and horse against yours.

At any rate it is difficult to believe that all of the games played at this site could be checked for chess computer assistance. A player might even check his own moves for obvious mistakes or blunders. How could that be detected? For instance I just missed a mate in one, in a recent game.

I don't place much emphasis on the rating of a particular player because one never knows whether or not computers are being used. I agree with you that it ruins the fun of the game and besides who has got the time to do that anyway. Nevertheless it happens and shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Abel Hart the II
Phlabibit
Mystic Meg
tinyurl.com/3sbbwd4
Joined
27 Mar '03
Moves
17242
03 Feb '10 20:25
Originally posted by AbleHeart Too
Kasparov has advocated the so called Hyper Chess where human opponents match off with chess computer assistance. It could be interesting, like horse racing.
I match my mind and horse against yours.

At any rate it is difficult to believe that all of the games played at this site could be checked for chess computer assistance. A player might even che ...[text shortened]... yway. Nevertheless it happens and shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Abel Hart the II
RHP can't check everyone to be a cheat, Game Mods start with the suspicions.

Fair play tickets are sent, and tests are run.

It takes a long time, but once a user is removed I'm confident they were removed for the right reason.

As someone said already, we don't know why anyone is removed... but if they WERE removed for engine matches I trust that decision.

P-
Phlabibit
Mystic Meg
tinyurl.com/3sbbwd4
Joined
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Moves
17242
03 Feb '10 20:31
Originally posted by AbleHeart Too
once read that Deep Thought ( dated, I know...) had access to records of thousands of GM level tournament games and would base it's response in active play based on the congruence of the current game to these record(s), i.e., it "played" just like the best human players.
Kasparov knew that and tried to get out of data quickly and as efficiently as possible.

There is NO data that covers all positions in all games. Very few games stay in data longer than 10 or sometimes 30 moves... and that is very rare.

Computers evaluate millions of positions, and throw away positions humans might think of. Humans don't think that way. Humans and computers play very different.

Anyone constantly matching engine play IS using the engine. Big Database won't make you look an engine user, using an engine will.

P-
AbleHeart Too
Int'l GrandMasher
Land of Nod
Joined
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05 Feb '10 03:00
What are Game Mods and fair play tickets ?

Thank you

Abel
MontyMoose
New Braunfels, Texas
Joined
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Moves
72283
05 Feb '10 03:092 edits
Originally posted by AbleHeart Too
What are Game Mods and fair play tickets ?
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