1. Standard memberIvorW
    Arbortrudor
    London, UK
    Joined
    26 Mar '03
    Moves
    15943
    05 Sep '03 13:54
    I have been musing on the effects of winning and losing games due to T/O on peoples ratings, since coming back from a holiday in July (where I was without Internet access), and finding my rating had dropped 100+ points 😠. All the games I had lost were in fact timeouts. I learned one valuable lesson, which was not to enter a tournament with a strict timeout before going on holiday 😳.

    It could be argued that winning a game by timing out your opponent in no way reflects superior skill on the chessboard. But, removing the effect of timed out games completely could be open to abuse. What's to stop you abandoning a game you are losing because you don't want your rating to be docked?

    I suggest a compromise: automatic tournament timeouts do affect ratings, but claimed wins don't. Claiming a win will still (obviously) allow progress to the next round. The same applies to clan matches.

    For non-tournament games, claiming wins will not affect ratings until 28 days have elapsed.

    I believe that this change will curtail some of the abuses of the timeout system that are happening.

    what do others think? Russ?
  2. Standard memberPhlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    tinyurl.com/3sbbwd4
    Joined
    27 Mar '03
    Moves
    17242
    05 Sep '03 14:36
    Originally posted by IvorW
    I have been musing on the effects of winning and losing games due to T/O on peoples ratings, since coming back from a holiday in July (where I was without Internet access), and finding my rating had dropped 100+ points 😠. All the games I had lost were in fact timeouts. I learned one valuable lesson, which was not to enter a tournament with a strict timeout be ...[text shortened]... tail some of the abuses of the timeout system that are happening.

    what do others think? Russ?
    Tell people you are going on vacation. Tell them when you will be back. If they time you out anyway don't play them anymore.

    You can't change the rules, since people would just let a lost position get timed out... new rule... new way to cheat.

    Just keep an eye on people who abuse the time, and don't play them anymore.

    Phla-
  3. Joined
    26 May '02
    Moves
    72546
    05 Sep '03 15:391 edit
    Originally posted by IvorW

    I suggest a compromise: automatic tournament timeouts do affect ratings, but claimed wins don't. Claiming a win will still (obviously) allow progress to the next round. The same applies to clan matches.

    For non-tournament games, claiming wins will not affect ratings until 28 days have elapsed.
    Why should a person who claims a win in a tournament game be penalised, compared to someone who waits a bit longer to get the automatic win? Is the second person more deserving of rating points than the first? The idea is ludicrous.
    As for clan games, there is no automatic time out, so they must be claimed.

    Your second suggestion is even worse. What you are proposing, is that everyone has to wait 28 days, regardless of the time out period, to claim a win - else be penalised by losing rating points. So a person playing a game with a 3 day TO, who has a winning positon and finds his opponent is unwilling to continue, and lacks the decency to resign, will have to wait a full 28 days before claiming the game. Absolute nonsense!

    😠
    Dave
  4. Standard memberskeeter
    515 + 30 days
    Account suspended
    Joined
    08 Mar '03
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    38202
    05 Sep '03 20:09
    Yet another whinging post from a player who wants to change the rules because they cannot manage their game(s) portfolio.
    Jeez Ivor, you are playing just 18 games. Some of us are running over 100 games and keeping up. The argument that while on holiday you had no internet access simply does not wash as there are now more internet cafe's throughout the world now than cars unless you went to outer Mongolia.
    Do what I did and buy a laptop with an inboard modem and Sat. card and play from anywhere, anytime. The rules are simple : play and stay or stall and haul and everyone understands that.
    Introducing your proposals would be an admin. nightmare and open all sorts of cans of worms. Its absolute nonsense - get organised and get a life.

    skeeteer

    PS the post was written and sent whilst travelling in a taxi to the airport to catch my flight.
  5. Donationmwmiller
    RHP Member No.16
    Joined
    25 Feb '01
    Moves
    55814
    05 Sep '03 20:221 edit
    Originally posted by IvorW
    I have been musing on the effects of winning and losing games due to T/O on peoples ratings, since coming back from a holiday in July (where I was without Internet access), and finding my rating had dropped 100+ points 😠. All the games I had ...[text shortened]... timeout system that are happening.

    what do others think? Russ?
    Lets look at your suggestion in this situation.

    Lets suppose that you and I are playing a rated 7 day t/o game and we're both making a couple of moves every single day. It's an interesting game and we're both playing well, but after a couple of weeks you start getting ahead on material and position. It's starting to look real good for you. A sure winner, just a matter of time.

    My position becomes hopeless, and you can work out a mate, but it's going to take you several moves. There are no options that can improve my situation.

    Now all of a sudden I quit making my daily moves, and start making exactly one move every seven days. I'm not a happy loser, and I just will not resign, even though we both see the outcome will be a win for you. I finally miss making a move and you have the option to claim a time-out victory against me.....

    Are you seriously saying that if you claim the victory just to end the game, you shouldn't get any points even though you played well and basically have won the game? Are you saying that I shouldn't lose any points, and that my poor behavior should actually be rewarded by allowing me to get out of this game as if it were a draw?

    If I were you, I'd take the victory and take the points. You earned them just as much as If you got the mate or your opponent resigned the lost game honorably!

    just my opinion...

    Marc
  6. Standard memberSirLoseALot
    Shut Gorohoviy!
    Joined
    19 May '03
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    14164
    06 Sep '03 03:27
    I believe that this change will curtail some of the abuses of the timeout system that are happening.

    How the heck can the time out system be abused??
  7. Over seas
    Joined
    20 Oct '01
    Moves
    14169
    06 Sep '03 04:30
    When you accept a challenge you are in fact accepting a contract, all the rules that apply are right in front of you. Its not a secret. I am not chiding, but what more do you want. I have waited for weeks for some one to move(not that this is your case) . It happend to me too, I went through a rough patch and was not able to play and was timed out.
    Now that I have a clan though, the ratings seem to mean nothing to me anyway. Some times I win some times I lose oh'well. Its only the points that matter and the game. Ratings are for suckers!

    Mike
  8. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
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    23647
    06 Sep '03 15:134 edits
    Originally posted by IvorW
    I have been musing on the effects of winning and losing games due to T/O on peoples ratings, since coming back from a holiday in July (where I was without Internet access), and finding my rating had dropped 100+ points 😠. All the games I had ...[text shortened]... timeout system that are happening.

    what do others think? Russ?
    What you are proposing for non-tournament games is essentially the following:
    Add 28 days to the original time out period of each game.
    So, we get a new time-out period of X + 28 days.

    ... the problems at the end of the time out period do not change at all, on the contrary. In this case it may become even more frustrating.When you're playing an unwilling opponent you'll be giving him the chance to stretch the game almost for ever and ever, because he can perform the same trick over and over again with every move he makes. That's why you will have to reduce the possibility of adding 28 days to one or two times a year.

    What you are trying to solve with your proposal is the possible massive timing out of games when you're on holiday and as a result of that the substantial dropping of the ratings.That's a serious problem calling for a swift solution.

    Chris is working on that problem and he made a proposal in some other thread *) that certainly is worth a serious try.

    Joe.

    *) The thread is called "Timeout Protection Allowance" on page 2 of the <Help & Site Ideas> Forum.
  9. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
    Moves
    23647
    06 Sep '03 17:42
    This is Chris's proposal:

    21 Aug '03 15:45

    Hello All,

    I have just been discussing with Russ some options to try to improve the way RHP handles periods when players are on holiday.

    We are thinking of implementing a T/O protection allowance. This could be used at anytime to prevent anyone from claiming timeouts against you, but you would only be able to use it up to the maximum allowance of, for example, 21 days per year.

    In any holiday system, something that had concerned us was that you could return from holiday with a whole bunch of games waiting for your move and before you had a chance to complete moves in each of these games, someone could be timing you out seeing that you are no longer on holiday.

    With this proposed system, you would still be able to make moves even with your T/O protection turned on, so you could complete moves in each of your outstanding games. It would be totally up to individuals how they made use of their allowance.

    The other main concern is that the current system works on the honour system which requires honesty both on the part of the player claiming to be on holiday and the player wanting to claim a timeout.

    I believe this new system would address both the issues above and effectively end most of the concerns that have been expressed about holidays and timeouts.

    Please let us know your thoughts on this...

    Thanks,
    Chris
  10. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
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    23647
    06 Sep '03 17:47

    I'll post in the "Timeout Protection Allowance" thread. Then it will appear on page 1 of the <Help & Site Ideas> Forum and you can post your eventual remarks on this subject.

    Joe
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