17 Aug 04
1 edit
Edit: my "yes" meant that I've seen it, not that I've tried it.Yes, but it's rare -- I've seen it in blitz now and then and in a book with odd varitations. I generally like 2. f4, but in the King's Gambit, my second favorite opening after the French (unlikely a pair they may seem!).
Sarah
17 Aug 04
Originally posted by AsianRosevery nice call on the name:
There's actually a name for 2 f4 in the French, so It's not too strange, just rare. 🙂 (the name is something like Labourdannais or however those French spell it!).
Sarah
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7378/e4e6f4.txt
17 Aug 04
Originally posted by paultopiaIf Black simply plays 2 ...... c5 you're in a recognized Sicilian line, the f4 Attack, which is generally considered inferior for White. Black is going to play a quick d5 (he could also do that on the second move making it into some sort of odd Scandanvian), so I don't see the point. There are plenty of good attacking lines against the French so why get cute?
has anyone tried this? 1. e4 e6 2. f4?!
17 Aug 04
Originally posted by no1marauderBecause I like to get cute?
There are plenty of good attacking lines against the French so why get cute?
I just started a game with AsianRose in that line which seems to have gone into a weird falkbeer-like situation that I think is favorable to white. 1. e4 e6 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 Nf3. No comments of course, but I like white's position there. Actually, it looks like a transposition into the bird but with the e pawns off. Since the e pawns are often a problem for white in the bird (trust me on this), that's good 🙂
20 Aug 04
Alekhine,A - NN [C00]
Paris sim Paris, 1925
1.f4 e6 2.e4 d5 3.Nc3 Ne7 4.Nf3 Ng6 5.d3 Bb4 6.Bd2 d4 7.Ne2 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c5 9.b4 b6 10.bxc5 bxc5 11.g3 Nc6 12.Bg2 Rb8 13.0-0 0-0 14.Rab1 Ba6 15.h4 h6 16.h5 Nge7 17.g4 Qa5 18.Qxa5 Nxa5 19.Ne5 Rfd8 20.f5 exf5 21.exf5 f6 22.Ng6 Nxg6 23.fxg6 Bb7 24.Nf4 Bxg2 25.Kxg2 Rb6 26.Rxb6 axb6 27.Re1 Nc6 28.Re6 Nb4 29.Re7 Kf8 30.Rf7+ Kg8 31.Ne6 Re8 32.Nxg7 Re2+ 33.Kf1 Rxc2 34.Nf5 Nxd3 35.Nxh6+ Kh8 36.Rh7# 1-0
23 Aug 04
John Watson doesnt give the variation much thought in his book 'Play the French - Second Ed.', but that doesnt mean its not playable.
Watson gives the game Weiss-Maroczy, Budapest, 1895, which is fairly equal.
2. f4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. c3 d4 6. d3 Nh6
But sometimes, equal is just what White wants, eg when he's playing against a much higher rated opponenet.
The Exchange Variation of the French has a way of being drawish, too.
23 Aug 04
Originally posted by paultopiaI found a site, Chesslabs.com, which has 2 million(!) games in its database from 1485-2004 (you have to do separate searches for games after 1991). In their database, their are 217 games which started (or transposed) 1. e4 e6 2. f4, 143 from 1991 on, so I guess there are people out there who like "cute" too! The bad news is the score in those games is White: 69 wins, Black: 95 wins and 53 draws, so personally I'm staying with the Alekhine-Chatard Attack (if they don't play the Winawer)!
Seeeee, Alekhine did it (by transposition) so it must be good! 😀
23 Aug 04
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't think that this stat reflects position evaluation. f4 is not typical reply, so it is likely that we have weaker players on the white side of most these games. IMO, white should be at least equal - two logical moves could not damage position too much.
I found a site, Chesslabs.com, which has 2 million(!) games in its database from 1485-2004 (you have to do separate searches for games after 1991). In their database, their are 217 games which started (or transposed) 1. e4 e6 2. f4, 143 from 1991 on, so I guess there are people out there who like "cute" too! The bad news is the score in thos ...[text shortened]... , so personally I'm staying with the Alekhine-Chatard Attack (if they don't play the Winawer)!
23 Aug 04
Originally posted by TovMauzerI think the stat is accurate because the two moves against e6 aren't logical; they weaken White's Kingside without the compensation in the King's Gambit of an open f-file. The Bird leads with an f4, but I can't find any line where White follows with an early e4. The stats for the French in general are 40-30-30 in favor of White; why wouldn't two moves which weaken your Kingside for no compensation tilt it about 10% the other way?
I don't think that this stat reflects position evaluation. f4 is not typical reply, so it is likely that we have weaker players on the white side of most these games. IMO, white should be at least equal - two logical moves could not damage position too much.
I narrowed the search to players rated over 2200 and then looked up games where White was over 2200 and Black was within 100 points either way; I found 6 games. The results? 3 wins for Black and 3 draws! I don't think it's a coincidence. If you want to play it for novelty value, have fun; but I don't think it's sound.
23 Aug 04
Originally posted by no1marauderThis line is only inferior for White if it arises from a Sicilian - 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5! with at least equality.
If Black simply plays 2 ...... c5 you're in a recognized Sicilian line, the f4 Attack, which is generally considered inferior for White. Black is going to play a quick d5 (he could also do that on the second move making it into some sort of odd Scandanvian), so I don't see the point. There are plenty of good attacking lines against the French so why get cute?
If Black plays 2...e6 or 2...d6 (or 1.e4 e6 2.f4 c5?) the position tends to be pretty good for White (which is why 2.f4 was so popular initially against the Sicilian).
23 Aug 04
Originally posted by OssePerhaps "inferior" is too strong a word; but Black quickly equalizes after 1 e4 e6 2 f4 c5; a quick d5 is coming for Black which is normally a major goal in the Sicilian.It is true 2 ..... d5 is generally considered best after 1 e4 c5 2 f4 but either e6 or g6 are fine for Black so I would not give c5 a "?" since it transposes into a recognized equalizing line for Black. As I pointed out above, however, if you stay in the French Black also has the advantage, so 1 e4 e6 2f4(?!) is for novelty value only.
This line is only inferior for White if it arises from a Sicilian - 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5! with at least equality.
If Black plays 2...e6 or 2...d6 (or 1.e4 e6 2.f4 c5?) the position tends to be pretty good for White (which is why 2.f4 was so popular initially against the Sicilian).