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  1. 14 Aug '07 06:20 / 3 edits
    This is probably the best CC game I've ever played and I feel like I have learned great dreal from my strong opponent. I got a draw from a 1800 player.

    I'm proud of my patient handling of the opening and a logical transformation from middle game to endgame by timely exhanges. (Although some moves I sould have played differently).

    My question is about the endgame.

    I offered a draw in move 38 because as we'll see later in the drawn?! position
    if the black king goes after the passed queen's rook pawn then he will leave the kingside pawns and I will pick up and promote one of my doubled pawns easily. It is interesting that he rejected! even though I had a passed queen rook pawn and he had no chance of counter-attack.

    I was not frustrated because I was glad that I could prove him wrong. So the game continued and he played Kf6. I pushed my h pawn, he pushed his and I waited with Ra3. (or Ra2 serves the same purpose). He finally he played Ke6 trying to go queenside as expected and I checked him with Rd3 and at this point he understood that he could not get away from checks (if he did come to say b4 and Rxa5, Rxa5 Kxa5 and Ke5 wins) and escaped back to f6 and I offered another draw and he accepted.

    My question is: Did I miss the winning line somewhere? (Should I have played Kf1 followed by e2-d3-c4-b5 etc...starting in move 34, to support the passed pawn?)
    Where could I have improved my play to win this one? Please post your opinions. Already much appreciated.

    Game 3780038
  2. Standard member hammster21
    Endgamer
    14 Aug '07 06:38 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by kenan
    even though I had a passed queen rook pawn and he had no chance of counter-attack.
    Nice job on the draw, though the above quote kinda says it yourself that you might have been able to do better. I would have definitely played on as white. You have an advanced passed pawn and your opponent has nothing. The worst you could do, assuming you don't blunder, is to draw later.

    Your rook can be used to protect your pawns while blacks rook is forced into passivity. Black is either forced to wait and see if you will mess up or try to create something on the kingside.

    As white I would have tried to bring my pawn up to f4, to restrict blacks only possible counter play, and also bring the rook up to a4, further preventing black by limiting where his king can go. Then, try to bring my king to safeguard the passed pawn and to either escort it up the board or to do some damage with your rook. I would aim for this white set-up as white.



    I won't go so far as to say this is a win for white, but I would say white has chances. Trying to trade off your A pawn for a central pawn might be an idea. I'm going to try your endgame against a computer to see if I can come away with a win.
  3. 14 Aug '07 06:55 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by hammster21
    Nice job on the draw, though the above quete kinda says it yourself that you might have been able to do better. I would have defiantly played on as white. You have an advanced passed pawn and your opponent has nothing. The worst you could do, assuming you don't blunder, is to draw later.

    Your rook can be used to protect your pawns while blacks rook is inst a computer to see if I can come away with a win. I'll edit this later with the details.
    You've got some good valid points. You're right that black has absolutely nothing! and I should have probably continued differently.

    I have thought on move 38 about 7 days. Not 1 or 2. 7 days straight before offering a draw.

    I figured that I could play f4 on move 38 (the first thing came to my mind when he played f5) . It means that white is pushing for a win?! maybe. I am not sure. But the game could still be a draw, I could probably win or worse I could mess it up (well it takes much stupidity on my side but on one of my drunk nights it's possible)

    However, to be honest I feared from my opponent's rating and played the safest and most direct move and offered a draw since I could not find a way to prevent black king from wandering around f6 and f7 squares.
  4. Standard member hammster21
    Endgamer
    14 Aug '07 07:12 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by kenan
    since I could not find a way to prevent black king from wandering around f6 and f7 squares.
    "Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean its not there." I've heard this from somewhere but can't remember where.

    After playing a few games against my computer, I've managed, as white, to draw all three games. I've also let two computers play a few short games, 2 draws, 1 win,and have come to the conclusion that "technically" this is a draw. Of course, Chessmaster 9000 could be wrong as he never thought that long.

    The only thing I have to say is that your opponent is not a computer. He can't analyze 1 million or whatever positions per second, and he doesn't know everything there is to know about chess. My advice is to never draw unless your certain. You could have learned a little something about endgames, which I know i did in the few minutes I spent going over it.

    edit: I never looked at anything before the draw was agreed. Maybe someone else can look over that.
  5. 14 Aug '07 07:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by hammster21
    "Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean its not there." I've heard this from somewhere but can't remember where.

    After playing a few games against my computer, I've managed, as white, to draw all three games. I've also let two computers play a few short games, 2 draws, 1 win,and have come to the conclusion that "technically" this is a draw. Of co mething about endgames, which I know i did in the few minutes I spent going over it.
    Thanks for all your genuine help!

    I thought a 1800 player would not push his king to queenside to lead his army to humiliating defeat.

    I offered a draw because I understood that he could easily defend the position by preventing me go queenside and protecting e5 square. Nothing very complicated about that. (hope I'm not wrong)

    I am not an expert, all this is what I am thinking and I think this looks like a draw.

    I feel that I missed something before move 38 and I wanna know it! So that I can improve.

    Should I have played differently in move 34 as I mentioned or set some other stratagey earlier?

    I just don't know.
  6. 14 Aug '07 11:02
    The final position is likely drawn, but I'm not 100% sure. White can still play on with the plan of K guarding a5 and R attack the pawns or play to b6. Here are some possible improvements for White:

    10.Qc1 intending Nd2, Nxc4 (b5?? Nd2 wins) This one's hard to spot because it violates the guideline of not moving a piece twice before completing development. But that queen has almost no squares on b3. Working backwards, wouldn't Nd2 be nice, got to move the queen then and still protect b2, so Qc1.

    21.Qc4 hitting c5. Nxd6 releases the pressure too soon. 21.Qc4 b6 22. Bxc5 Bxc5 (or bxc5) Qxb3. If bxc5 then the a-pawn is passed, if Bxc5 then Nxc7 is threatened. In either case you've gotten the pawn back with decent control of the Q-side.

    30.Ke1 keeping your knight and leaving the other one trapped and out of play. The pin isn't dangerous as there's no other pieces to help attack the N. If you need to, you have time to retreat with Rc3 to help block along the 3 rank. With the a-pawn also protected, you can then play Ra1-h1xh2.

    36.Kf1 gets to b5 faster. The idea is to push the a-pawn, or else redeploy the R to attack the Q-side pawns. May not be enough to win but it's a better chance than Kg2
  7. 14 Aug '07 16:33 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by DawgHaus
    The final position is likely drawn, but I'm not 100% sure. White can still play on with the plan of K guarding a5 and R attack the pawns or play to b6. Here are some possible improvements for White:

    10.Qc1 intending Nd2, Nxc4 (b5?? Nd2 wins) This one's hard to spot because it violates the guideline of not moving a piece twice before completing develop R to attack the Q-side pawns. May not be enough to win but it's a better chance than Kg2
    Wow. Do you know how much I appreciated this? Thank you so much.

    Especially number 10 suggestion, it has never even crossed my mind. Bravo for spotting it. That looks like the best and fastest move. My idea with Be2 is to develop?! and the next move I saw the queen there and made space (like Qc1! is making space) by d5 so I could play Nd4 but it was too late to be effective.

    (Also move number seventeen I did not see anything playable besides b5.)

    Qc4 is a great move, I did not see that one at all but makes sense. I falsely hurried to exchange.

    As you pointed out, yes the pin does not do anything at all. This is something I feared which I should get over to become a stronger player. My idea to go after the trap the knight was wrong as it loses time.

    The last one I saw 2 moves earlier in move 34. But I did not want to leave my kingside pawns alone as I could not estimate what would happen.

    I would help if anyone could help to win this endgame starting move 34. Should the king go to help advance the a5 pawn? (I once even thought I should have never pushed my pawn to a5 but it should have stayed at a4 and I could have played something else?!)
  8. 14 Aug '07 21:38
    The win here lies in remembering how powerful the king is in the endgame and being prepared to use it offensively. After 35. a5 Ra6, the white king marches off to victory. The rook is chased away.
  9. 14 Aug '07 21:59
    that sounds like the best to me you are able to put pressure on pretty quickly and also you can use your rook to make it so the black king cannot advance very far. another thing might have been is to try to take the knight give up the pawn. the rook will be on a8 and unable to move while you try to scoop up a victory from black but marching the king over sounds much better.
  10. 15 Aug '07 05:42
    Originally posted by Forest9
    The win here lies in remembering how powerful the king is in the endgame and being prepared to use it offensively. After 35. a5 Ra6, the white king marches off to victory. The rook is chased away.
    Thanks for pointiong out the win.

    I regret that I did not take my chances by marching with the king on that quickest diagonal (f1-e2-d3-c4-b5). I feared to leave the kingside.