against c6 and e6 play e4 or c4?

For those who play c6 or e6 against d4 would it suprise you or get you caught off gaurd? Why is c4 played against c6 and e6 more than e4?

Originally posted by kmac27
For those who play c6 or e6 against d4 would it suprise you or get you caught off gaurd? Why is c4 played against c6 and e6 more than e4?

If you play 1.d4,c6 2.e4 you transposed into an e4 opening which is probably not what a d4 player wants.
Kinda defeats the purpose of playing 1.d4,you know 😉
I do think it would surprise many 1....,e6/c6 players though.
Hm,maybe an idea.... 🙂

Your question is confusing to me. Are you asking white, the d4 player, if they are caught of guard by 1...e6 or c6?

I play 1. d4 almost exclusively and although I've not encountered too many 1... e6's or c6's I'd think that it's just a move order difference, no? Not sure what's the purpose behind c6/e6. Me, I'd just play 2. c4 anyway to try and stay within the d4 realm of openings rather than allow the Caro-kann or French with 2. e4.

if e6
2...f5 dutch
2...d5 QGD
2...Nf6 Queen/Nimzo

if c6
2...d5 slav
2...e5 benoni

most people who play c6 go for a slav position and many people who play e6 are going for a classical variation or nimzo indian. I'm just thinking that I could get better at a few specific openings. I mainly started playing d4 to avoid the e5 responses.

isn't it better to control the game in the direction it goes so you have complete control and have a better idea of the opening?

Originally posted by jnguyen
Your question is confusing to me. Are you asking white, the d4 player, if they are caught of guard by 1...e6 or c6?

I play 1. d4 almost exclusively and although I've not encountered too many 1... e6's or c6's I'd think that it's just a move order difference, no? Not sure what's the purpose behind c6/e6. Me, I'd just play 2. c4 anyway to try and stay wit ...[text shortened]... if e6
2...f5 dutch
2...d5 QGD
2...Nf6 Queen/Nimzo

if c6
2...d5 slav
2...e5 benoni

My chess ambition is to be able to start with 1.c4, 1.d4, 1. e4 and 1. f4 and play them all well. That way if someone trys 1. ... c6 or 1. ... e6 after 1. d4 then if I know the player I can choose 1. e4 or 1. c4 depending on which I think gives me the better chances against that player.

lets say you don't know the player.

Originally posted by DeepThought
My chess ambition is to be able to start with 1.c4, 1.d4, 1. e4 and 1. f4 and play them all well. That way if someone trys 1. ... c6 or 1. ... e6 after 1. d4 then if I know the player I can choose 1. e4 or 1. c4 depending on which I think gives me the better chances against that player.

First part makes a lot of sense. Definitely, play everything well if possible. A broad repertoire is a definite plus.

second part though, if you know the player and you purposely chose 1.d4 are you not hoping for a d4 system opening, since we'll, it would only make sense to play 1.d4 if you thought you had better chances to win against a particular opponent? To me, makes little sense to start 1.d4, see 1...e6 then think hmmm maybe I should go back to e4 system because I think I have better chances. If you knew 1. e4 system offered better chances, why not play 1.e4 to begin with?

Only reason is maybe you like 1.e4 but don't like facing say Sicilian so you play 1.d4 then hope black allows you to transpose back and play french, caro etc. But to me this doesn't sound like a typical opening strategy.

Its not a strategy. Its only taking advantage of an opening move order. Say someone who likes to play the nimzo indian plays e6 first.

Originally posted by kmac27
Its not a strategy. Its only taking advantage of an opening move order. Say someone who likes to play the nimzo indian plays e6 first.

As black, what's the advantage of playing e6 instead of Nf6 first?

lol I don't think there is one, but a lot of players will play c6 or e6 first. So maybe it would be a good suprise in otb play. I like slav and semi slav positions, but I like to face a french or a caro kann, easier and it has suprise value.

Originally posted by kmac27
lol I don't think there is one, but a lot of players will play c6 or e6 first. So maybe it would be a good suprise in otb play. I like slav and semi slav positions, but I like to face a french or a caro kann, easier and it has suprise value.

really interested in the response from the e6/c6 players out there if faced with 2.e4. As for me, I don't see the surpise factor. If black wants nimzo/queens but elects e6 instead of the more common Nf6 and then does not get the desired c4 then it makes little sense to play e6 to begin with unless black is also a French expert. So it would make sense to me that only French experts would choose e6 against 1.d4 (or caro experts choosing c6), either way there should be no surprise if white plays 2.e4

if black plays e6 with no french knowledge, well then yeah, he's in for a surprise.

Originally posted by jnguyen
As black, what's the advantage of playing e6 instead of Nf6 first?

1.d4 e6 avoids the Trompowsky for one thing (1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5).
1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 is a way of playing the Dutch without worrying about Anti-Dutch systems as well (1.d4 f5 2.e4/1.d4 f5 2.g4/1.d4 f5 2.Bg5/etc.).
1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 is also a way to play the English Defence (1.d4 b6 2.e4! ... Owen's Defense).

e6 does have its goals.

Every e6 player must be ready,willing, and able to play the French Defense (or possibly the Owens). Basically, black is saying I'm going to dodge a few queen pawn systems or get the French that I am comfortable playing.

For a long while, I answered 1.e4 and 1.d4 with e6.
I used the French (Winawer and McCutcheon) and Dutch (Stonewall and Classical).
Eventually, I got tired of the same old positions though.


1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ is another odd try. It is called the Kangaroo.
3.Nc3 can transpose to a Nimzo Indian.
3.Bd2 can traspose to a Bogo Indian.
One idea is to play b6 for black as well.
There is a Karpov-Miles game, however, where black took quite a beating.

Originally posted by jnguyen
really interested in the response from the e6/c6 players out there if faced with 2.e4. As for me, I don't see the surpise factor. If black wants nimzo/queens but elects e6 instead of the more common Nf6 and then does not get the desired c4 then it makes little sense to play e6 to begin with unless black is also a French expert. So it would make sense to me ...[text shortened]... ys 2.e4

if black plays e6 with no french knowledge, well then yeah, he's in for a surprise.

On RHP I can access peoples previous games and see whether they cope better with french or queen´s pawn type games (not that I´m that likely to do it - to be honest it hardly ever happens, normally you get main line stuff off higher rated oppenents). I take your point about why not play 1. e4 to start with but it should be an arbitrary decision what the first move is unless you know your opponent will misplay after 1. c4 or they play very well after 1. e4 e5 or something. A regular opponent who normally plays something else might try it against you and you can choose what to play based on your best guess of what they´re hoping for.

I play a much tighter repetoire as black.

Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
1.d4 e6 avoids the Trompowsky for one thing (1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5).
1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 is a way of playing the Dutch without worrying about Anti-Dutch systems as well (1.d4 f5 2.e4/1.d4 f5 2.g4/1.d4 f5 2.Bg5/etc.).
1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 is also a way to play the English Defence (1.d4 b6 2.e4! ... Owen's Defense).

e6 does have its goals.

Every e6 player 6 for black as well.
There is a Karpov-Miles game, however, where black took quite a beating.

Those are good points for the merits of e6 that I never thought of since I don't play the dutch and don't mind facing trompowsky as black. But realistically then, as you mentioned, e6 is only viable for French players and it would be a major risk otherwise to play it with only the intention of avoiding a few queen pawn openings.