I own fritz8. Now my question is: Do you think it is useful to analyse my games with it. You should know that my computer is pretty old. It is a pentium 3 with 128 MB RAM. My comp is also in bad shape, so I can only run it at 64 MB. Do you think it is useful to analyse my finished games with it?
Originally posted by tejoI'd like to hear some answers to this also. I don't own Fritz, but I keep hearing and reading a lot about it. I guess I'm just not understanding how a computer program can help analyze a chess game. I understand it can show tactical errors and many lines that a player may not have considered, but how does it actually analyze the moves you've already played in a game? I'm not talking about it offering other moves that were available, I mean analyzing as in written, descriptive text explaining why certain moves were better or worse. Does it do that?
I own fritz8. Now my question is: Do you think it is useful to analyse my games with it. You should know that my computer is pretty old. It is a pentium 3 with 128 MB RAM. My comp is also in bad shape, so I can only run it at 64 MB. Do you think it is useful to analyse my finished games with it?
Thanks for any help anyone can give!
Wib
Originally posted by wibInstead of helping,I'll puzzle you even more.Did you know Fritz analyses games backwards?I mean,it starts the analyses at the last move!Go figure... 😕
I'd like to hear some answers to this also. I don't own Fritz, but I keep hearing and reading a lot about it. I guess I'm just not understanding how a computer program can help analyze a chess game. I understand it can show tactical errors and many lines that a player may not have considered, but how does it actually analyze the moves you've already playe ...[text shortened]... s were better or worse. Does it do that?
Thanks for any help anyone can give!
Wib
My experience with fritz' analyses function is that it's useless except for spotting tactical shots.The only written analyses it will give is things like (covers b5) or (pressures d4),stuff like that.Do not think it is like a strong human player,annotating games.
Sir Lot
I did buy Fritz 8, and I use it to analyze my games. For me it is invaluable, as I can't spot most tactics without spending a fair amount of time yet.
Here is what I do with it:
- Get a PGN from RHP, then reformat it in a text editor, so that word wrap doesn't break the tag fields (at the top) or moves containing a hyphen.
- I have Fritz configured so that it saves the evaluation for each position. This supports a graph of the evaluation at each move.
- Load the game into Fritz, convert it to ChessBase format, and replay it to familiarize myself with the game. I try to see the main tactics, looking mostly at where material is won or lost.
- Then I run the "blunder check" function, at 7 moves deep, for my color only. This looks for any moves I made that were more than 0.6 pawns evaluation poorer than the line Fritz chooses as best. Fritz then flags these moves and records its suggested line as a variation to the game. Fritz doesn't seem to always record variations (why?). I do not use the natural text output of Fritz because it seems gimmicky. I try to add comments myself at critical points.
- For games in which the evaluation graph has jumps, I then set Fritz into infinite analysis mode, and investigate more closely. I pause at each discontinuity in the graph and try to understand the position. A jump in this graph is an indication that I or my opponent missed some tactic.
I know that playing through a game on my own is valuable, but with Fritz, I find all sorts of tactics that I wouldn't see on my own, including missed opportunities. However, it is often very difficult for me to figure out why Fritz thinks one line is better than another.
I hope this helps.
Originally posted by zucchiniThanks folks!
I did buy Fritz 8, and I use it to analyze my games. For me it is invaluable, as I can't spot most tactics without spending a fair amount of time yet.
Here is what I do with it:
- Get a PGN from RHP, then reformat it in a text editor, so that word wrap doesn't break the tag fields (at the top) or moves containing a hyphen.
- I have Fritz configured ...[text shortened]... ult for me to figure out why Fritz thinks one line is better than another.
I hope this helps.
Zucc, that sounds pretty amazing with what you've got going on there. That seems like it would certainly be helpful for learning openings by keeping an eye on the tactical traps early on. That's a pretty cool system you've got going on there.
This statement; "However, it is often very difficult for me to figure out why Fritz thinks one line is better than another" is I guess what I was wondering about. It sounds like Fritz doesn't really spell out why a line is better than another other than the tactics. That's fine of course. I was just wondering.
Originally posted by wibIt just gives a numeric evaluation in units of 1/100 of a pawn's value to assess a position. Positive means white is ahead, negative means black -- with no explanations! So often the only way to figure out what is going on is to follow some of the suggested lines, which sometimes seem to lead nowhere.
It sounds like Fritz doesn't really spell out why a line is better than another other than the tactics.
Originally posted by zucchiniWhen you look at the numerical analysis, fritz will give a + or - evaluation of the position. If say it gives 1.89, that means that white has a 1.89 pawn advantage. This advantage has either already been taken (i.e white is already a pawn up) or it means white can secure a pawn advantage within the computers horizon(the horizon being the amount of moves fritz has looked ahead, this depends on your settings but is usually 10-15 moves or so).
.. it is often very difficult for me to figure out why Fritz thinks one line is better than another.
If white can go up a rook, it will give a 5+ numerical advantage, as a rook is worth 5 pawns and so on....
Originally posted by wibHey, that is EXACTLY what I've been waiting for all these years! If the manufacturers of these things want to make some SERIOUS cash and profits, then they need to get thier donkey in gear and invent a computer that will do exactly as you say. That is, offer solid comprehensible analysis of games in easy to understand, human friendly language. Do that, and i gaurantee they will have the chess community lined up at thier door. I know i'd whip out my wallet in a heartbeat for something of that caliber.
I'd like to hear some answers to this also. I don't own Fritz, but I keep hearing and reading a lot about it. I guess I'm just not understanding how a computer program can help analyze a chess game. I understand it can show tactical errors and many lines that a player may not have considered, but how does it actually analyze the moves you've already playe ...[text shortened]... s were better or worse. Does it do that?
Thanks for any help anyone can give!
Wib
But I'm afraid that inventing such a thing is on the par, difficulty wise, as inventing am authentic star Trek like transporter beam, or a Mr. Data like android. I don't believe we yet, at this point, have the technology.
(sigh)
Originally posted by wibThat is excactly the point, my good man. What good does it do for the machine to impart to us knowledge without essential UNDERSTANDING? If it can't explain in clear human language why a certain line is better, then we are left in the dark, trying to figure it out on our own. Frustration may soon ensue. I'm afraid our playing will improve very little from this fruitless analysis.
Thanks folks!
Zucc, that sounds pretty amazing with what you've got going on there. That seems like it would certainly be helpful for learning openings by keeping an eye on the tactical traps early on. That's a pretty cool system you've got going on there.
This statement; "However, it is often very difficult for me to figure out why Fritz thinks one ...[text shortened]... etter than another other than the tactics. That's fine of course. I was just wondering.
Better stick with the books that teach good solid principals of chess, rather than amorphous, nondescript lines without reason. Sure, I realize that some people's brains may function thsi way, but most of us don't work that way. we are essentially both left and right brained individuals. Our brains are quiite capable of grasping CONCEPTS, which a computer could probably, not in the forseeable future, ever latch onto. We're still talking the stuff of sciene fiction here.
Its great for finding basic tactics, but will miss sacs or just call them bad when it sees them since the thing Fritz wont do is offer longer term game ideas, positional play if you like, heres a good example of fritz getting it very wrong.........enjoy :-)
Kasparov,G (2830) - X3D FRITZ [D45]
X3D Match New York USA (3), 16.11.2003
[Nikolai Vlassov]
After the previous game I suggested providing the Man with the low-power software for such matches to insure him against blunders. Now it is time to bring up the mirror proposal, and allow the Machine to consult a weak player who will direct it from time to time. A second-grade player would suit fine to turn the clown show into an intellectual encounter, in my opinion. However, tastes differ.
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.d4 c6 5.e3 a6 6.c5 Nbd7 7.b4 a5?
Diagram # This is a very strange and weak move. White yearns for b4-b5 but the a6 pawn prevents it, so Black is helping White! My Fritz 8 puts this move into 5th place - not every software improvement leads to success in the game! [After 7...b6 ;
or 7...Qc7 Black's position has defence potential.]
8.b5 e5 9.Qa4 Qc7 10.Ba3 e4 11.Nd2 Be7 # 12.b6!N
[The following game saw 12.Be2 h5 13.b6 Qd8 14.h3 Nf8 15.0-0-0 Ne6 16.Ndxe4 Nxe4 17.Nxe4 h4 18.Nd2 0-0 19.Rhg1 Re8 20.Bd3 Bf8 21.Bb2 Ng5 22.Qc2 a4 23.a3 Qe7 24.Rde1 Ne4 25.Nf1 Qg5 26.f3 Nf6 Reshevsky-Keres, 1948 and White had a winning position.]
12...Qd8 13.h3 0-0
[Better is 13...Nf8 14.Nb3 Ng6 - if White captures the a5 pawn, it will be difficult for him to get rid of pins: 15.Nxa5 0-0 16.Qb4 (16.Bb4 Nd7) 16...Nd7]
14.Nb3 Bd6!? #
This is the only interesting move made by Fritz in this game! 15.Rb1 [After 15.cxd6?? Nxb6 the white queen is trapped.]
15...Be7??
Admirers o f the scientific and technical progress were disappointed - Fritz demonstrated all its idiocy! It simply does not understand what his pieces are meant for and what to do with them. [Bad is 15...Nh5? in view of 16.Nxd5! cxd5 (16...Ng3 17.cxd6 Nxh1 18.Ne7+ Kh8 19.Nc5+-) 17.cxd6 Nxb6 18.Qb5 Bd7 19.Qc5 Na4 20.Qc7± and White has an upper hand that's why it is necessary to deprive White of the c7-square:; 15...Ne8 now the following does not work 16.Nxd5? cxd5 17.cxd6 Nxb6 18.Qb5 Bd7 19.Qc5 Na4µ Black seizes the initiative.;
My Fritz prefers quite a human move 15...Bb8 - the bishop is transferred to the diagonal where it supports the ...f7-f5-f4 advance, which gives Black counter-play.]
16.Nxa5 Nb8
Steinitz was right - the initial position is the best for the pieces and the Machine starts to realize it! :-) Computer only needs to return the bishop to f8 as it did against Kramnik!
17.Bb4 Qd7 18.Rb2! Diagram # An excellent prophylactic move! Kasparov defends the f2 pawn and prepares to transfer his king to the safe queenside. 18...Qe6 [18...Qf5 is impossible due to 19.Nxc6!+-]
19.Qd1 Nfd7 20.a3 Qh6 21.Nb3
Having captured the a5 pawn, White's pieces stepped back and cleared the way for his a-pawn. This plan is obvious for a man, but is beyond machine's comprehension because it is too long-term.
21...Bh4
Threatening to take on e3. In the previous game a similar trick worked!
22.Qd2 # 22...Nf6?
[Fritz does not understand (by the way, Junior understands) that it is necessary to create counter-play with 22...f5 No machine is able to think like human and to realize where pieces should be. For instance, if we put the black rook on f7, then transfer the knight along f8-e6-d8 (if necessary) and make it harder for White to breakthrough on the queenside, White will be unable to attack on the kingside because his pieces are weaker there. It would be a draw!]
23.Kd1 Be6
[The following does not work 23...Bxf2?! 24.Qxf2 Ng4 25.Qd2 Nxe3+ 26.Ke2 Nxf1 27.Rxf1+-]
24.Kc1 Rd8
Here is the overprotection of the d5 point - Nimzowitsch would have been happy! Now the knight should be moved from b8 to e7. You will laugh, but this is exactly what Black is going todo!
25.Rc2 Nbd7 26.Kb2 Nf8 27.a4 Ng6 28.a5 Ne7 #
If Fritz had not made his last six "developing" moves, his position would have been much better.
29.a6 bxa6 30.Na5 Rdb8 31.g3!?
This delay ows Garry's desire to involve his h1 rook in the game. However, he has already had enough forces. [Winning is 31.Na2 and Black is unable to protect his pawns on a6 and c6. 31...Bc8 a)31...Ne8 32.Ka1 (a)32.Bc3 Nc7) ; b)31...Nd7 32.Ba3 Bf6 33.Nb4 Nxb6 34.cxb6 Rxb6 35.Ka2 c5 36.Rxc5; c)31...Bg5 32.Ba3 Nd7 33.Ka1; 32.g3 Bg5 33.h4 Ne8 34.Bc3 Nc7 35.Nb4 Nb5 36.Bg2 Bf6 37.Naxc6 Nxc6 38.Nxc6 Rb7 39.f3 However, Kasparov's plan is better because it does not involve any complications.]
31...Bg5 32.Bg2
[Not so convincing is 32.Na2 Bg4 33.Rg1 Bf3 34.h4 Ng4] 32...Qg6 33.Ka1 Kh8?? [33...Bc8 33...Bc8 was necessary, followed by moving the knight from f6 to d8. But Fritz does not realize this.]
34.Na2 Bd7 35.Bc3 Ne8 36.Nb4 Kg8 37.Rb1 Bc8 38.Ra2 Bh6 39.Bf1 Qe6 40.Qd1 Nf6 41.Qa4 Bb7
The time control has been reached and now it's time for action:
42.Nxb7 Rxb7 43.Nxa6 Qd7 44.Qc2 Kh8 45.Rb3 #
For some reason Black resigned here. Of course, I understand that White is winning but the board is full of pieces, only one pawn is missing, a man can blunder when the forces clash. It is at least strange to break the show here. 1-0
Perhaps Fritz cannot find beautiful 20 move sac combinations...
But certainly Fritz would find any combination a master or lower could find. Here is one of my most beautiful games and the Analysis Fritz provided. Not only did it produce all the text below but it can also produce awesome HTML pages of analysis with diagrams and variations and great layout. So if your wondering what the analysis actually looks like, take a peek. By the way this is Fritz analyzing each half - move for ten seconds. This was produced in about ten minutes, if you let go overnight it would certainly produce much better analysis, but for my playing level this is sufficient.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maquieira (1253) - Bonox (1653) [B17]
Friendly Game, 5m + 2s Main Playing Hall, 25.07.2004
[Fritz 8 (10s)]
B17: Caro-Kann: Modern Line (4...Nd7)
1.d4 c6 2.e4² d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Nf3 Ngf6 6.Bd3 Nxe4 7.Bxe4 Nf6 8.Bd3 Bg4
9.h3
[
9.Be3 e6=]
9...Bh5
[
9...Bxf3 10.Qxf3 Qxd4 11.0-0=]
10.g4 Nxg4?? allows the opponent back into the game
[
¹10...Bg6= would keep Black alive]
11.hxg4+- Bxg4 12.Be2
[
12.Qe2 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Qxd4+-]
12...h5 13.Be3 Qa5+ 14.c3 e6 15.Qb3
[
15.Ne5!? Qd5 16.Rh2 Bxe2 17.Qxe2 g6+-]
15...0-0-0± 16.0-0-0 Be7 17.Rhe1
[
¹17.Rde1 Bf6 18.Rhg1±]
17...h4?
[
¹17...Bf6±]
18.Ne5+- Bxe2 19.Rxe2 Rdf8
[
19...Rh5 20.Nxf7 Rdd5+-]
20.Nxf7!! a decisive sacrifice that breaks all resistance 20...Qh5
[
20...Rxf7 Decoy to f7 21.Qxe6+ A double attack]
21.Qxe6+ Kb8 22.Nxh8 Qxe2
[
22...Rxh8 is not the saving move 23.Bf4+ Ka8 24.Qxe7+-]
23.Bf4+! Theme: Clearance for e6-e2
[
23.Bf4+ Rxf4 24.Qxe2+-]
1-0
Originally posted by tejoTejo,
I own fritz8. Now my question is: Do you think it is useful to analyse my games with it. You should know that my computer is pretty old. It is a pentium 3 with 128 MB RAM. My comp is also in bad shape, so I can only run it at 64 MB. Do you think it is useful to analyse my finished games with it?
You play that strongly and you don't know what a computer can do? You own fritz8 but you haven't tried running it?
John.
Originally posted by ReelEmInReidI use it for my database and it has a great opening book. Those are the main reasons for me to use it. I have used the infinite analysis feature to look at my games for some time, but on many occassions fritz suggested a move for which I don't agree that much. And because it doesn't tell me why he did suggest that move, I am not sure all the time if he or I am right. Maybe this sounds strange to you, and maybe it is just an insecurity of me, but I would like your opinion about it.
Tejo,
You play that strongly and you don't know what a computer can do? You own fritz8 but you haven't tried running it?
John.
Originally posted by tejoLeed it by the hand, like a child, then you will see what it see's, and it will see what you see, does that make any sense ?
I use it for my database and it has a great opening book. Those are the main reasons for me to use it. I have used the infinite analysis feature to look at my games for some time, but on many occassions fritz suggested a move for which I don't agree that much. And because it doesn't tell me why he did suggest that move, I am not sure all the time if he or I a ...[text shortened]... trange to you, and maybe it is just an insecurity of me, but I would like your opinion about it.