1. Joined
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    05 Nov '12 18:401 edit
    Here's something I've never quite understood:



    Where should the rest of the pieces be for the LSB to be well placed? Why? This is of course extremely general, but I would just like to have some guidelines about this. What are black's possible intentions? What are white's? Of course it's impossible to say in general without the rest of the pieces, but there are a few most important openings where something like this can appear on the board. I'm mostly asking about these.
  2. SubscriberPaul Leggett
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    05 Nov '12 19:022 edits
    Originally posted by WanderingKing
    Here's something I've never quite understood:

    [fen]4k2r/5pbp/5np1/8/6b1/5N2/5PPP/3QK2R b Kk - 3 33 [/fen]

    Where should the rest of the pieces be for the LSB to be well placed? Why? This is of course extremely general, but I would just like to have some guidelines about this. What are black's possible intentions? What are white's? Of course it's i ...[text shortened]... openings where something like this can appear on the board. I'm mostly asking about these.
    This is not a complete answer, but today I was at my Monday morning chess study group with two friends, and we were reviewing some King's Indian Defense games, and Bronstein's games in particular.

    We were discussing common themes and ideas in the KID, and one of them is how effective the Black queen's bishop is often ideally posted on it's original square. The idea is that covers the b7 pawn, watches the e6 and g4 squares (the latter being a particularly important KID square), reinforces the ...f5 pawn break, and can later be deployed or sacrificed on h3 for an attack with no tempos going to waste from previous moves.

    It's a little bit of a simplification, but it is amazing how useful the bishop can be from c8, and it is not uncommon to see the bishop sit there for 20 moves on it's original square in the KID, only to emerge with devastating effect on h3 at a timely point in the game.
  3. Joined
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    05 Nov '12 19:131 edit
    At a first glance, black usually plays Bg4 in these fianchetto variations for dark sqaure control. Bg4 pins (or prepares to capture) the f3 knight so that an e7-e5 (or c7-c5) push can chip away at the d4 pawn. Note that a black pawn is usually on d6 (not d5) in these situations. That's the most logical reason for black parting with the c8 bishop in these type of positions. In some cases, it's about black getting piece control of d4, as well. Bg4 is almost always about the dark squares and the d4 square in these setups.

    One example that I always seem to remember if from the book, Best Lessons Of A Chess Coach.

    Here is the variation the author gives:



    Another simpler illustration of the Bg4 with e5 intentions is this line of the Pirc:



    These are just a few ideas of why black may play Bg4 with a kingside fianchetto. I'm sure there are many more.
  4. Joined
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    05 Nov '12 19:275 edits
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    This is not a complete answer, but today I was at my Monday morning chess study group with two friends, and we were reviewing some King's Indian Defense games, and Bronstein's games in particular.

    We were discussing common themes and ideas in the KID, and one of them is how effective the Black queen's bishop is often ideally posted [i]on it's origina re in the KID, only to emerge with devastating effect on h3 at a timely point in the game.
    [/i]

    I agree. Sometimes, I play the Bg4 move just for a less traveled variation, but usually it is best to keep it at home. If you plunk it on d7 at some point, you will wish you had that square for another piece. It's kind of weird that staying undeveloped seems right. I guess it's because white usually doesn't have any targets on the white squares (except his pawns), and the bishop does defend the queenside (where white's counterattack is usually aimed). It also probably has something to do with the closed nature of the main KID variations. Bishops aren't really that active in closed games with pawn breaks. If you think about the 4 bishops in a KID, the f1 bishops gets behind a wall of pawns on e2 or g2. The c1 bishops main ambition is to trade (for the other bishop at h6 or for a knight at g5). I guess it can aid a pawn break at c5, but that's not much. The c8 bishop usually just sits, and the g7 bishop only comes into play much much later (usually via a pawn sac to open the diagonal).
    The knights are tons more useful than the bishops in the KID!

    Revised Edit: Thanks very much! I put an [ /i ] before my entire response, and that worked great.
  5. SubscriberProper Knob
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    05 Nov '12 19:532 edits
    Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
    I agree. Sometimes, I play the Bg4 move just for a less traveled variation, but usually it is best to keep it at home. If you plunk it on d7 at some point, you will wish you had that square for another piece. It's kind of weird that staying undeveloped seems right. I guess it's because white usually doesn't have any targets on the white squar n the KID!

    Edit: For the life of me, I still can't see how it came out typed this way!
    Edit: For the life of me, I still can't see how it came out typed this way!

    I may not know much about the KID, but i do know the answer to this. 🙂

    When you answer someone's post with 'reply and quote', the text you are replying to has been quoted in your text box, but it has been shortened. You have lost this [ / i ] (but without the spaces), which closes the words in italic and hence all your text has come out in italic.
  6. Account suspended
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    05 Nov '12 23:21
    Originally posted by WanderingKing
    Here's something I've never quite understood:

    [fen]4k2r/5pbp/5np1/8/6b1/5N2/5PPP/3QK2R b Kk - 3 33 [/fen]

    Where should the rest of the pieces be for the LSB to be well placed? Why? This is of course extremely general, but I would just like to have some guidelines about this. What are black's possible intentions? What are white's? Of course it's i ...[text shortened]... openings where something like this can appear on the board. I'm mostly asking about these.
    in my humble opinion, unless you can exploit the pin then pinning the knight may be a waste of time, generally speaking.
  7. SubscriberPaul Leggett
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    06 Nov '12 12:231 edit
    Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
    [/i]

    I agree. Sometimes, I play the Bg4 move just for a less traveled variation, but usually it is best to keep it at home. If you plunk it on d7 at some point, you will wish you had that square for another piece. It's kind of weird that staying undeveloped seems right. I guess it's because white usually doesn't have any targets on the whi dit: Thanks very much! I put an [ /i ] before my entire response, and that worked great.
    My initial appreaciation of this idea came from some Kasparov annotations of a KID game here he said something to the effect of "In the King's Indian, if black loses his light squared bishop, he has no hope of a kingside attack."

    I've played the KID, the Pirc, and the Modern, and my rule of thumb (which I should have thought to post earlier) is that ...Bg4 works best when white has not played c4.
  8. Account suspended
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    06 Nov '12 13:061 edit
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    My initial appreaciation of this idea came from some Kasparov annotations of a KID game here he said something to the effect of "In the King's Indian, if black loses his light squared bishop, he has no hope of a kingside attack."

    I've played the KID, the Pirc, and the Modern, and my rule of thumb (which I should have thought to post earlier) is that ...Bg4 works best when white has not played c4.
    Andrew Soltis in a book I have of his, draws attention to that game, the Kasparov game that is, to demonstrate intuition, he claims that Kaspaorov would never have considered a move like ..Bg4 because he knows intuitively that he needs that bishop to mount any kind of serious attack on whites King position.
  9. Joined
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    06 Nov '12 19:38
    Thanks! This is pretty much what I wanted to know. 🙂
  10. Joined
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    07 Nov '12 11:24
    Some related questions: when is h3 (or mirrored) good and when is it bad? Can we allow the pin to remain and place the light-squared bishop on a more active square, or is Be2 advisable?



    I just put some of the pieces in the FEN..
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