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  1. 11 Mar '11 14:18
    How long does it generally take for the site to note a draw after a player claims the draw.

    See the game below. I just claimed the draw. Please do not comment on the below game specifically, as the game is still in progress. Note the repetition in position on moves 30, 32, 34, and 36.

    Game 8225904
  2. 11 Mar '11 14:33
    Are you sure you claimed the draw along with a move that directly led to the repeated position?

    FAQ
  3. 11 Mar '11 15:10 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Zaubernuss
    Are you sure you claimed the draw along with a move that directly led to the repeated position?

    FAQ
    Yes, I believe. I'm not sure. There is actually more than one position that is being repeated.

    Maybe I should have claimed the draw on moves 35 or 37 for the repeated position on moves 31, 33, 35, and 37. My move 35 resulted in a third repetition of a position, and my move 37 resulted in a fourth repetition of the position.

    Game 8225904

    But I claimed the draw on my move 38.

    The FAQ rule you linked does indicate "Claiming after the repetition has occurred [is] possible [if] the same position can be repeated again on a future move."

    And indeed, here, the position can be repeated again on a future move.
  4. 11 Mar '11 15:39
    Originally posted by Zaubernuss
    Are you sure you claimed the draw along with a move that directly led to the repeated position?

    FAQ
    As mentioned, I just claimed the draw on my move 38 the current position. The current position has only been repeated twice on my moves 34 and 38.

    However, there have been other positions repeated three or four times, and my moves directly contributed to those repeat positions. Also, it is possible for those positions to arise again.

    Game 8225904

    I did offer the guy a draw a couple of moves ago, but he declined.
  5. 11 Mar '11 15:55 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Maybe I should have claimed the draw on moves 35 or 37 for the repeated position on moves 31, 33, 35, and 37.
    Yes, I think that's it.
  6. 11 Mar '11 15:58 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Zaubernuss
    Yes, I think that's it.
    I am too accustomed to on-line blitz chess over the years, that I was thinking incorrectly the draw would be automated here.
  7. 11 Mar '11 16:06
    Originally posted by moon1969

    The FAQ rule you linked does indicate "Claiming after the repetition has occurred [is] possible [if] the same position can be repeated again on a future move."

    And indeed, here, the position can be repeated again on a future move.
    That wording in the FAQ answer is indeed quite misleading. Article 9.2 of the FIDE rules states:

    "The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):

    a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or

    b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

    Positions as in (a) and (b) areconsidered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.
    Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer be captured in this manner. When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its castling rights, if any, only after it is moved."


    The "future move" clause seems to be motivated by case a, but as I understand it, one still has to make that move to claim the draw here.
  8. 11 Mar '11 16:13
    In researching the issue, wikipedia discusses it (reproduced below). The RHP rule apparently agrees with the FIDE rule.

    The threefold repetition rule (also known as repetition of position) states that a player can claim a draw if the same position occurs three times, or will occur after their next move, with the same player to move. The repeated positions need not occur in succession. The idea behind the rule is that if the position is repeated three times, no progress is being made. In order for a position to be considered the same, each player must have the same set of legal moves each time . . . The game is not automatically drawn if a position occurs for the third time – one of the players, on their turn to move, must claim the draw with the arbiter.


    The relevant rule in the FIDE laws of chess is 9.2, which reads:

    The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by sequential repetition of moves)

    a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or

    b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

    Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.

    Positions are not [considered to be] the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer be captured or if the right to castle has been changed. (FIDE 2005, Article 9.2)

    While the rule does not require that the position occur thrice on nearly consecutive moves, it happens this way very often in practice. The intermediate positions and moves do not matter – they can be the same or different. The rule applies to positions, not moves.

    "Draws by this method were uncommon in the past."
  9. 11 Mar '11 16:15
    An interesting tidbit noted in wikipedia is a 1971 game (Fischer versus Petrosian, 1971) in which Fischer claimed a draw versus an unsuspecting opponent.

    http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1106921

    "In the third game of the 1971 Candidates Final Match between Bobby Fischer and Tigran Petrosian, Petrosian (with a better position) accidentally allowed a position to be repeated three times.

    30. Qe2 Qe5
    31. Qh5 Qf6
    32. Qe2 (second time) Re5
    33. Qd3 Rd5?

    and then Fischer wrote his next move

    34. Qe2 (third time)

    on his scoresheet, which is the third appearance of the position with Black to move, and he claimed a draw.

    At first Petrosian was not aware of what was going on. Incidentally, this was the first time a draw by threefold repetition had been claimed in his career. This also illustrates that the intermediate moves do not need to be the same – just the positions."
  10. 11 Mar '11 16:48
    Originally posted by Zaubernuss
    That wording in the FAQ answer is indeed quite misleading. Article 9.2 of the FIDE rules states:

    "The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):

    a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares ...[text shortened]... d by case a, but as I understand it, one still has to make that move to claim the draw here.
    Oh I just noticed your latest post. Thanks. I agree with your insight.
  11. Standard member mikelom
    Ajarn
    12 Mar '11 12:11
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Oh I just noticed your latest post. Thanks. I agree with your insight.
    Maybe I am playing for a draw.

    You offered one, didn't claim it. However, I believe after my latest move 'you may' be able to claim one 'on move', this time..

    (p.s. - we shouldn't really discuss games in progress, as a rule; but no probs here).

    -m.
  12. 12 Mar '11 13:16 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by mikelom
    Maybe I am playing for a draw.

    You offered one, didn't claim it. However, I believe after my latest move 'you may' be able to claim one 'on move', this time..

    (p.s. - we shouldn't really discuss games in progress, as a rule; but no probs here).

    -m.
    Mike, I am looking and I don't think I will be able to claim a draw if I now do 39.Nh4 (first time for the position with your Q at g6).

    However, if you then do 39. . . Qh5, you could claim the draw (third time for that position and you would be moving into it), but apparently you would have to claim the draw simultaneous with making the 39. . . Qh5 move.

    This post wasn't really for this game in particular, but I was just interested in learning the 3-repeat draw rules including the nuances. Both for FIDE and RHP. I posted the game for context.
  13. 12 Mar '11 13:29
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Oh I just noticed your latest post. Thanks. I agree with your insight.
    Mikelom, if I now do 39.Ne5 and then you do 39 . . . Qf5, then I could do 40.Nf3 on move 40 and I can then claim the draw on move 40.

    39. Ne5 Qf5
    40. Nf3 (and white claims draw)
  14. 12 Mar '11 14:46
    Game concluded. Draw. Claimed the draw on the last move and the draw was noted.

    Game 8225904