Originally posted by BedlamAnd actually about as bad for white as the line you gave in the KG if you go by engines scores (I'm aware that somebody is going to tell me this isn't the best way to judge the position, but it is the most objective.) This isn't the line to play for an advantage apparently...
Im going to see what the Scotch offers..the Mieses variation looks fun.
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nxc6 bxc6
6. e5 Qe7 7. Qe2 Nd5 8. c4 Ba6
[fen]r3kb1r/p1ppqppp/b1p5/3nP3/2P5/8/PP2QPPP/RNB1KB1R w KQkq - 0 9[/fen]
Almost as mad as a KG 😛
Spike 1.2 Turin - 0.00
Toga II - 0.00
Rybka - 0.00
F9 - 0.00
Alright, this kind of freaks me out tbh. I gave each about 20 seconds, can anybody confirm that their engine scores this position COMPLETELY equal??
Originally posted by cmsMasterAlso remember that now you'll have to study some Philidor, Petroff, and Elephant Gambit lines. Nothing to scare you away from it, but that was actually one of the reasons I started playing the KG instead of 2.Nf3.
And actually about as bad for white as the line you gave in the KG if you go by engines scores (I'm aware that somebody is going to tell me this isn't the best way to judge the position, but it is the most objective.) This isn't the line to play for an advantage apparently...
Spike 1.2 Turin - 0.00
Toga II - 0.00
Rybka - 0.00
F9 - 0.00
Alright, t ...[text shortened]... out 20 seconds, can anybody confirm that their engine scores this position COMPLETELY equal??
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Originally posted by cmsMasterIt looks more easy to play for a win from here than the KG position I gave.
And actually about as bad for white as the line you gave in the KG if you go by engines scores (I'm aware that somebody is going to tell me this isn't the best way to judge the position, but it is the most objective.) This isn't the line to play for an advantage apparently...
Spike 1.2 Turin - 0.00
Toga II - 0.00
Rybka - 0.00
F9 - 0.00
Alright, t ...[text shortened]... out 20 seconds, can anybody confirm that their engine scores this position COMPLETELY equal??
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Originally posted by cmsMasterI used to play Italian lines so Pertroff etc iv come across before, will have to brush up my theory tho since its been over a year 🙂
Also remember that now you'll have to study some Philidor, Petroff, and Elephant Gambit lines. Nothing to scare you away from it, but that was actually one of the reasons I started playing the KG instead of 2.Nf3.
Originally posted by BedlamStill, the position doesn't give white any advantage. So with precise play at the top levels one would assume that this isn't the opening to choose to play a game taking the opening advantage to a win.
It looks more easy to play for a win from here than the KG position I gave.
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Originally posted by cmsMasterAnd yet is it played at the very top levels...weird hey 🙂
Still, the position doesn't give white any advantage. So with precise play at the top levels one would assume that this isn't the opening to choose to play a game taking the opening advantage to a win.
Maybe its a case of the KG not being complex enough to outplay people from.....
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I was trying to see the varitions and moves played in this opening, so running through the databases and this game caught my eye. I really like whites play here.
[Event "OHRA"]
[Site "Amsterdam"]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Van der Wiel, John TH"]
[Black "Timman, Jan H"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C45"]
[WhiteElo "2550"]
[BlackElo "2630"]
[PlyCount "141"]
[EventDate "1987.08.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "NED"]
[EventCategory "13"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.01.01"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nxc6 bxc6 6. e5 Qe7 7. Qe2 Nd5 8.
h4 f6 9. c4 Ba6 10. Rh3 fxe5 11. Ra3 Nb4 12. Nc3 Qxh4 13. g3 Qd4 14. Rxa6 Nxa6
15. Bf4 O-O-O 16. Be3 Qd6 17. c5 Nxc5 18. b4 Nd3+ 19. Qxd3 Qxd3 20. Bxd3 d5 21.
Rb1 d4 22. Bf5+ Rd7 23. b5 c5 24. Ne4 dxe3 25. fxe3 Kd8 26. Bxd7 Kxd7 27. Rc1
Bd6 28. Nxc5+ Bxc5 29. Rxc5 Re8 30. Rd5+ Kc8 31. a4 Re7 32. g4 h6 33. Kf2 e4
34. Rd4 Kb7 35. g5 hxg5 36. Kg3 Re5 37. Kg4 c5 38. Rd7+ Kb8 39. Rd6 Re7 40.
Kxg5 c4 41. Rd2 Kb7 42. Rc2 Rc7 43. a5 c3 44. Kf5 Rc4 45. Ke5 a6 46. b6 Kc6 47.
Rc1 g5 48. Kf5 Rc5+ 49. Kxe4 Rxa5 50. Rxc3+ Kxb6 51. Rc8 Rc5 52. Rb8+ Ka7 53.
Rf8 a5 54. Kd4 Rb5 55. e4 a4 56. e5 a3 57. Rf1 Kb6 58. Rf6+ Ka5 59. Rf1 Rb2 60.
e6 Re2 61. Kd5 a2 62. Kd6 Kb4 63. e7 Kb3 64. Kd7 Kb2 65. Rf2 Rxf2 66. e8=Q Rd2+
67. Kc7 Rc2+ 68. Kd6 Rd2+ 69. Kc7 a1=Q 70. Qh8+ Ka2 71. Qa8+ 1/2-1/2
Originally posted by BedlamIDK it's possible, is the Scotch really played all that much at top levels? I think it might have more to do with the fact that white gives up a pawn and the right to caslte. GM's crave their pawns.
And yet is it played at the very top levels...weird hey 🙂
Maybe its a case of the KG not being complex enough to outplay people from.....
Ironically, I just ran a Ruy mainline through and didn't find any advantage for white either (about .01). I had thought that I would take the Ruy Lopez up as my main choice after I reached 1800 and keep the KG as a solid backup (especially in low time control matches) but with all of the theory, and seeing that white doesn't really gain any advantage and ends up with what seems like a positional game I feel a little skeptical now.
And I just threw up in my mouth - guess I'm sick. A little off topic, but it was gross.
Bedlam, I'm not trying to chop up your aspirations of playing the Scotch either, I've thought about using it, and one of the main reasons I'm not is because I don't want to go about learning more theory. People always suggest using an opening for at least a year, and I've never done that. The KG offers my best chance of making that goal. And when I do I'll probably add another opening to my repertoire.
Yeah, I feel genuinely sick right now. I might not be posting much, I should probably get some rest. And chicken noodle soup. And 7 up. 😀
Originally posted by BedlamHa, wow! Insane, h4 and Rh3. LMAO, I haven't seen anything like that above 1300. 😀
I was trying to see the varitions and moves played in this opening, so running through the databases and this game caught my eye. I really like whites play here.
[Event "OHRA"]
[Site "Amsterdam"]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Van der Wiel, John TH"]
[Black "Timman, Jan H"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C45"]
[WhiteElo "2550"]
[BlackElo "263 ...[text shortened]... Rc2+ 68. Kd6 Rd2+ 69. Kc7 a1=Q 70. Qh8+ Ka2 71. Qa8+ 1/2-1/2
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Originally posted by cmsMasterThanks for the extra info there...let me go and make a note of that in my diary 😉
IDK it's possible, is the Scotch really played all that much at top levels? I think it might have more to do with the fact that white gives up a pawn and the right to caslte. GM's crave their pawns.
Ironically, I just ran a Ruy mainline through and didn't find any advantage for white either (about .01). I had thought that I would take the Ruy Lopez u osting much, I should probably get some rest. And chicken noodle soup. And 7 up. 😀
Kasparov played the Scotch...🙂 Many of the top GM's play it, Van der Wiel, Rublevsky, Sokolov etc
I dont know either why the KG isnt played at the very top. Could be style, could be lack of complexities for GMs...maybe we should ask Short or someone?
Iv just put the scotch through CB8's opening report will cut and paste, then do the KG and cut and past that too.
Opening report
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4
6623 games in 'Fritz 9 Database'
1. History
Earliest game:Blackburne,J - Rosenthal,S 1-0, London 1883
Latest grandmaster game:Kristjansson,S - Stefansson,H 0-1, ISL-ch Reykjavik 2005
Latest game:Ambarcumova,K - Deriabina,S 1-0, St Petersburg Rudenko mem 2005
Games played in years (6623)
Fashion index - Distribution of games relative to database [%]
2. Players
a) Strong grandmasters who used this line as White:
Sergei RublevskyResult=31.5/501991-2005Elo-Ø: 2657games: 50
Garry KasparovResult=16/201990-2001Elo-Ø: 2805games: 20
Vassily IvanchukResult=5.5/81991-2005Elo-Ø: 2713games: 8
Teimour RadjabovResult=3.5/62004-2005Elo-Ø: 2669games: 6
Alexei ShirovResult=3/51991-2001Elo-Ø: 2678games: 5
Gata KamskyResult=1.5/21992-1993Elo-Ø: 2655games: 2
Alexander G BeliavskyResult=1.5/21994-1997Elo-Ø: 2680games: 2
Boris GelfandResult=1.5/21991-1992Elo-Ø: 2665games: 2
b) Other notable players:
Dusko PavasovicResult=35.5/521993-2005Elo-Ø: 2526games: 52
John TH Van der WielResult=29.5/471979-2005Elo-Ø: 2538games: 47
Robert ZelcicResult=20/311992-2005Elo-Ø: 2515games: 31
Igor Alexandre NatafResult=20/341998-2005Elo-Ø: 2538games: 34
Emanuel BergResult=18/281992-2004Elo-Ø: 2394games: 28
Joanna DworakowskaResult=16.5/211999-2005Elo-Ø: 2376games: 21
Vladimir BaklanResult=16/241997-2005Elo-Ø: 2593games: 24
3. Statistics
White scores averagely (54😵.
White performs Elo 2315 against an opposition of Elo 2286 (+29).
Black performs Elo 2252 against an opposition of Elo 2281 (-29).
White wins: 2512 (=38😵, Draws: 2141 (=32😵, Black wins: 1969 (=30😵
The drawing quote is lower than average. (7% quick draws, < 20 Moves)
White wins are of average length (39).
Black wins are of average length (39).
Draws are shorter than average (35).
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Opening report
1.e4 e5 2.f4
3922 games in 'Fritz 9 Database'
1. History
Earliest game:McDonnell,A - De Labourdonnais,L 1-0, London m3 1834
Latest grandmaster game:Gashimov,V - Graf,A 0-1, EU-chT 15th Gothenburg 2005
Latest game:Neubauer,M - Ragger,M ½-½, AUT-ch Gmunden 2005
Games played in years (3922)
Fashion index - Distribution of games relative to database [%]
2. Players
a) Strong grandmasters who used this line as White:
Alexei FedorovResult=26.5/401995-2004Elo-Ø: 2594games: 40
Nigel D ShortResult=5/71997-2002Elo-Ø: 2684games: 7
Alexander MorozevichResult=3.5/71995-2002Elo-Ø: 2711games: 7
Alexander ShabalovResult=2.5/32000Elo-Ø: 2598games: 3
John DM NunnResult=1.5/31995Elo-Ø: 2625games: 3
Julio E Granda ZunigaResult=1/11998Elo-Ø: 2630games: 1
Vassily IvanchukResult=1/11997Elo-Ø: 2740games: 1
Johann HjartarsonResult=0.5/11988Elo-Ø: 2610games: 1
Viktor KortschnojResult=0.5/11972Elo-Ø: 2670games: 1
Michael AdamsResult=0.5/11997Elo-Ø: 2680games: 1
b) Other notable players:
Heikki MJ WesterinenResult=38/631982-2003Elo-Ø: 2407games: 63
Mikhail ChigorinResult=31.5/581874-1907games: 58
Joseph G GallagherResult=25/381985-2001Elo-Ø: 2492games: 38
David I BronsteinResult=18/221945-1990Elo-Ø: 2528games: 22
Rudolf SpielmannResult=17/311905-1938games: 31
Boris V SpasskyResult=15/201955-2001Elo-Ø: 2588games: 20
Frank James MarshallResult=14/251901-1911games: 25
3. Statistics
White scores averagely (54😵.
White performs Elo 2250 against an opposition of Elo 2221 (+29).
Black performs Elo 2187 against an opposition of Elo 2216 (-29).
White wins: 1657 (=42😵, Draws: 925 (=24😵, Black wins: 1330 (=34😵
The drawing quote is low. (4% quick draws, < 20 Moves)
White wins are shorter than average (34).
Black wins are shorter than average (35).
Draws are shorter than average (37).
Originally posted by BedlamI knew you'd enjoy hearing about my puke. Burned my throat, tasted bad too. I do have an interest in the Scotch, but I seriously want to stay away from looking at the lines, because if I get interested enough I'll start playing it and ruin my plan of playing the KG for a year. :/
Thanks for the extra info there...let me go and make a note of that in my diary 😉
Kasparov played the Scotch...🙂 Many of the top GM's play it, Van der Wiel, Rublevsky, Sokolov etc
I dont know either why the KG isnt played at the very top. Could be style, could be lack of complexities for GMs...maybe we should ask Short or someone?
Iv just put th ...[text shortened]...
Nataf,I - Bologan,V 1-0; Oral,T - Aleksandrov,A 1-0; Dreev,A - Peng Xiaomin ½-½; ...
Originally posted by BedlamWow, fascinating similarites. They score evenly, and both have low draw rates. The KG scores better than I expected. When I have more time I'll try to look through these more deeply.
Opening report
1.e4 e5 2.f4
no valid Text
C45, 2.f4
3922 games in 'Fritz 9 Database'
1. History
Earliest game:McDonnell,A - De Labourdonnais,L 1-0, London m3 1834
Latest grandmaster game:Gashimov,V - Graf,A 0-1, EU-chT 15th Gothenburg 2005
Latest game:Neubauer,M - Ragger,M ½-½, AUT-ch Gmunden 2005
Games played in years ( ...[text shortened]... 95, 0/1
You should play: 3.Nf3
Daverkausen,B - Heil,S 0-1; Obst,J - Song,A 1-0;...
BTW: I forgot Morozevich and Westerinnen played the KG.
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Originally posted by cmsMastergrrr I just edited them to make them more readable for those who dont like being blitzed with info 🙂
Wow, fascinating similarites. They score evenly, and both have low draw rates. The KG scores better than I expected. When I have more time I'll try to look through these more deeply.
BTW: I forgot Morozevich and Westerinnen played the KG.
Will e-mail you the report on the KG.
I was just thinking the stats looks very simlar.