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  1. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    30 Jan '06 17:38
    For any of you boys with the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings, is there any standard opening that starts off with 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 followed with 3 e4 if Black doesn't play 2 ..... d5? In an OTB tournament I was in over the weekend, two players used it against me; I can't remember ever facing this line before. Is somebody out there recommending it, perhaps as an anti-Sicilian?
  2. 30 Jan '06 17:55
    The move black plays is essential. Because of the e4 this line transposes into many e4 openings where black allows white to get a classic pawn center by allowing him to play 2.d4.

    For example 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 d6 and we transpose into the pirc defence which is normally played 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3

    Or maybe the french: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4 and then 3...d5

    I am not really sure why white would play this transposition. Maybe it is to avoid sicilian and ruy lopez games while still playing a 1.e4 opening system.
  3. 30 Jan '06 18:09
    to surprise players you can allways play 2. c5 (maybe get an improved benoni-like setup)

    not sure if it is a sound opening but I never had problems with it.
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    30 Jan '06 18:17
    Originally posted by Testrider
    to surprise players you can allways play 2. c5 (maybe get an improved benoni-like setup)

    not sure if it is a sound opening but I never had problems with it.
    I'm not really interested in the inevitable snotty comments about how all you 1500-1600 players would easily crush it; I'm interested in whether A) it is an established line; and B) whether someone is recommending the line as often these type of things become "flavors of the month" and you start to see it a lot.
  5. 30 Jan '06 18:54 / 1 edit
    It would help if you gave us Black's second move.

    Generally speaking it would normally transpose to a Pirc or Modern (depending on Black's second move of course).
  6. 30 Jan '06 18:55
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    For any of you boys with the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings, is there any standard opening that starts off with 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 followed with 3 e4 if Black doesn't play 2 ..... d5? In an OTB tournament I was in over the weekend, two players used it against me; I can't remember ever facing this line before. Is somebody out there recommending it, perhaps as an anti-Sicilian?
    Actually, it's a clever way to an anti king's indian, by goading black to play the pirc instead. However, 2...d5 forces white into the Veresov opening which is more tame than the QGD.

    d4 and Nc3 can also lead to blackmar diemer gambit if black plays d5 if that is what white wants.
  7. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    30 Jan '06 19:11
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    For any of you boys with the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings, is there any standard opening that starts off with 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 followed with 3 e4 if Black doesn't play 2 ..... d5? In an OTB tournament I was in over the weekend, two players used it against me; I can't remember ever facing this line before. Is somebody out there recommending it, perhaps as an anti-Sicilian?
    1.d4 Nf6 without 2.c4 places us in A 4 in ECO. As far as I can tell looking through volume A, and using the ECO classification features of ChessBase, 2.Nc3 is a move order variation in the Trompowski attack (ECO A45). 2.Bg5 is the mainline. The push e2-e4 is certainly thematic in the Trompowski.

    In my main database, I found 8363 games that reached the position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3. 2...d5 was played in 5664 of these. 3.e4 often gets played in such a position, leading to a variant of the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit. Against the second most popular reply (2...g6) 3.e4 was the overwhelming favorite choice with 988 games. 3.Bg5, a Trompowski move, was the second most popular with a mere 78 games from this set. However, 3.Bg5 seems more sensible after 2.e6.

    Black's choices most often can determine the transpositions to other opening systems, with B 06 (the Modern Defense) and D 01 (Richter-Veresov) seemingly most common.

    I doubt that some sort of anti-Sicilian is in the works.

    How did the games proceed?
  8. 30 Jan '06 19:16
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    For any of you boys with the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings, is there any standard opening that starts off with 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 followed with 3 e4 if Black doesn't play 2 ..... d5? In an OTB tournament I was in over the weekend, two players used it against me; I can't remember ever facing this line before. Is somebody out there recommending it, perhaps as an anti-Sicilian?
    after 1. d4 nf6 2. nc3... the only good move according to fritz9's opening book is d5. After this the game is exactly equal. White's c-pawn is blocked and black will have no problem developing. 1. d4 without 2.c4 is pretty much throwing away white's opening advantage. You could play 3... g6 transposing to a pirc, but in the pirc white has a nice opening advantage. You should always play 2...d5 if white plays d4 and nc3, it is immediate equality, at least if you wanna talk theoretically.
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    30 Jan '06 21:23 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    1.d4 Nf6 without 2.c4 places us in A 4 in ECO. As far as I can tell looking through volume A, and using the ECO classification features of ChessBase, 2.Nc3 is a move order variation in the Trompowski attack (ECO A45). 2.Bg5 is the mainline. The push e2-e4 is certainly thematic in the Trompowski.

    In my main database, I found 8363 games that reached the pos mmon.

    I doubt that some sort of anti-Sicilian is in the works.

    How did the games proceed?
    I figured d5 is the normal line; however, I didn't want to play a "normal" Queen's Pawn game. I played 2 .... e6 in the first game and after 3 e4 could have Transposed into the French, which I don't like much as Black. I therefore played 3 .... Bb4 and was out of the books pretty early. That game proceeded: 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 e6 3 e4 Bb4 4 e5 Nd5 5 Bd2 Nxc3 6 Bxc3 Qe7. I can't find any other games in the database with 6 Bxc3 and it seems like an error to me. The game was pretty even with a bunch of exchanges, but I blundered losing a pawn in the early endgame and lost an endgame a pawn down with a Knight v. a Bishop.

    The other game was a little more normal; it turned into a Pirc. 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 g6 3 e4 d6 4 Bc4 e6 5 Nf3 Bg7 6 Bg5 Qd7. 4 ..... e6 is a positional error on my part; I don't like fianchetto defenses against e-pawn games and mismanaged it IMO. e6 is the standard response in the Sicilian to Bc4 but in this case it weakens the dark squares too much. After Bg5, he was already threatening to win a piece. I was in kind of a positional disadvantage in a rather boring position for most of the game, but it opened up into wild complications on an open g-file late and I outplayed my opponent tactically to win the exchange. I then blundered badly in time trouble on move 40 and he could have at least forced a draw by repetition but he went pawn grabbing and walked into a mating net.

    Still thinking of how I want to handle this if I see it in the future; I still can't find any game I've played on the net (close to 900) where my opponent started with this move order.
  10. 30 Jan '06 21:41
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    For any of you boys with the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings, is there any standard opening that starts off with 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 followed with 3 e4 if Black doesn't play 2 ..... d5? In an OTB tournament I was in over the weekend, two players used it against me; I can't remember ever facing this line before. Is somebody out there recommending it, perhaps as an anti-Sicilian?
    It would probably be B07, PIRC.
  11. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    30 Jan '06 22:22
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I therefore played 3 .... Bb4 and was out of the books pretty early. That game proceeded: 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 e6 3 e4 Bb4 4 e5 Nd5 5 Bd2 Nxc3 6 Bxc3 Qe7.
    I found 10 games that reached your position after 5...Nxc3. All are classified A45, the code for the Trompowski. Yet, these lack the characteristic Bg5. Your 6...Qe7 appears to be the novelty.

    In answer to your original question, I do not see that your opponents were playing a standard opening that can be classified within the ECO. Rather, they were playing a series of moves that gave you the choice of opening system, and nearly assured the game would follow unusual paths even then.
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    30 Jan '06 23:43
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    I found 10 games that reached your position after 5...Nxc3. All are classified A45, the code for the Trompowski. Yet, these lack the characteristic Bg5. Your 6...Qe7 appears to be the novelty.

    In answer to your original question, I do not see that your opponents were playing a standard opening that can be classified within the ECO. Rather, they were playi ...[text shortened]... the choice of opening system, and nearly assured the game would follow unusual paths even then.
    You can call it the Marauderowski Defense, though I doubt I'll play it again. Fritz was pretty mad at me for not just exchanging Bishops, but I figured he couldn't take me because of Qxb4+ and grabbing the b-pawn and his Bishop was misplaced as what we like to call "A Big Pawn". Of course, they eventually got traded anyway.