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  1. 26 Oct '11 04:22


    White to move.

    1. What are the imbalances?
    2. What is whites plan?
    3. What is blacks plan?

    I would love to see some discussion of this position without the use of an engine please. 🙂
  2. Standard member chessicle
    The Chessicle
    26 Oct '11 05:54
    1. White has an IQP, which gives him a slight space advantage, free development, and lots of dynamic potential, but which can be weak in an endgame.

    2. White needs to use his dynamic potential to attack, either on the kingside or through the middle. d5! can be a tremendously forceful move in this sort of position

    3. Black needs to keep the lid on White's attacking attempts, controlling d5 especially (not necessaily, but often, occupying it), and would love to see an endgame. The absolute ideal is to exchange the knights and LSBs, when his remaining pieces would have all the dynamic potential, as well as a weakness to aim for.

    The other thing about this position is the potential to transform it into a hanging pawns position (black takes the knight on c3, and white recaptures with the b-pawn). This pair potentially gives white more central control, and the d5 break remains powerful, but they're on open files and c4 especially can be a weakness.

    Very interesting positions, these. I prefer the black side myself, but that's because I'm not so good at attacking!
  3. 26 Oct '11 08:46 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    [fen]r1bq1rk1/p3bpp1/1pn1pn1p/8/2BP3B/2N2N2/PP3PPP/2RQR1K1 w - - 0 1[/fen]

    White to move.

    1. What are the imbalances?
    2. What is whites plan?
    3. What is blacks plan?

    I would love to see some discussion of this position without the use of an engine please. 🙂
    i dont know about that but looking at the pieces, white bishop on h4 is doing nothing,
    the pin is ineffective, also the same for blacks queens bishop, its staring at the back of
    the e pawns head. Both have yet to realise their full development, the queens are not
    posted and the rooks are not connected. I would take these factors into consideration
    before fomenting any plan.
  4. 26 Oct '11 12:25 / 1 edit
    for white: isolated d-pawn, but both rooks on open files. queen a bit squeezed. d5 and d4 seem like tasty spots for the knight.
    for black: a pawn already left the kings' formation and its back rank seems weak: the bishop probably likes b7 soon, as it points down the knight and king of white.

    in general, both should now try to get developed further. both have an unprotected minor piece sitting around, this can be used to generate tempo, whoever attacks it first. as white i would consider a rook lift soon, maybe after the knight has moved to d5 or the other to d4, with a possible exchange to get rid of the defending knight on f6.

    both should get their queens into play, too.

    sorry, no real plans, just directions of thought...
  5. 26 Oct '11 13:59
    first of all I feel white has a very good IQP (isolated queen position)
    both rooks are already on c1 and e1
    blacks knight on c6 looks loose because of the rook on c1
    white is ahead in development and usually looks to time d5! to blow the position apart if he can (this can sometimes make e7 weak when the rook is one e1

    black must hope to develop Bb7 and prevent any d5 push if he can whilst avoiding any Ne5/sac on f7.

    in this case I suspect white has a forcing way to advantage
  6. 26 Oct '11 14:02
    other plans for white include attacking on the b1/h7 diagonal with q and b threatening mate, to force kingside weaknesses
  7. Standard member nimzo5
    Ronin
    26 Oct '11 14:43
    Originally posted by queenabber
    other plans for white include attacking on the b1/h7 diagonal with q and b threatening mate, to force kingside weaknesses
    This is a famous game, I would have thought more people would recognize the position?

    The IQP is the key point- White is looking to play d5 effectively and Black's plan is to restrain it and execute it. Standard play.

    If Black were to move they would probably play Nb4-Nd5 maneuver and then Bb7 completing the Blockade.

    If this doesn't make sense I would suggest picking up a copy of Baburin's book on IQP's.
  8. 26 Oct '11 15:07 / 1 edit
    "This is a famous game, I would have thought more people would recognize the position? "

    It is of course that famous game Mildrew - Von Varuka, Hampton Heath C.C. 1843.
    The game that inpsired Marshall's Qg3 sac against Levitsky, Breslau 1912
    (The gold coins game).

  9. 26 Oct '11 15:40
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    "This is a famous game, I would have thought more people would recognize the position? "

    It is of course that famous game Mildrew - Von Varuka, Hampton Heath C.C. 1843.
    The game that inpsired Marshall's Qg3 sac against Levitsky, Breslau 1912
    (The gold coins game).

    [pgn]
    [FEN "r1bq1rk1/p3bpp1/1pn1pn1p/8/2BP3B/2N2N2/PP3PPP/2RQR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
    1. Bg3 Kh8 2. Qd3 Rg8 3. Nh4 Nh7 4. Qg6 fxg6 5. Nxg6[/pgn]
    This game was unknown to me, but looking at the initial position posted by Tomtom and this move sequence, it is like black commits suicide in a "how many moves can I get mated in?" maneouvre (admittedly with a lovely queen sac though).

    In fact, is it possible for black to get themselves mated any quicker (assuming white isn't complicit in the silly move market)?
  10. 26 Oct '11 15:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    "This is a famous game, I would have thought more people would recognize the position? "

    It is of course that famous game Mildrew - Von Varuka, Hampton Heath C.C. 1843.
    The game that inpsired Marshall's Qg3 sac against Levitsky, Breslau 1912
    (The gold coins game).

    [pgn]
    [FEN "r1bq1rk1/p3bpp1/1pn1pn1p/8/2BP3B/2N2N2/PP3PPP/2RQR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
    1. Bg3 Kh8 2. Qd3 Rg8 3. Nh4 Nh7 4. Qg6 fxg6 5. Nxg6[/pgn]
    Well, it may be from that game as well but I found this position while looking through the 32nd world championship match between Karpov and Kasparov in 1985.
  11. 26 Oct '11 16:05
    Black's plan is to try to avoid playing 22. ... Rcd8.
  12. 26 Oct '11 16:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    "This is a famous game, I would have thought more people would recognize the position? "

    It is of course that famous game Mildrew - Von Varuka, Hampton Heath C.C. 1843.
    The game that inpsired Marshall's Qg3 sac against Levitsky, Breslau 1912
    (The gold coins game).

    [pgn]
    [FEN "r1bq1rk1/p3bpp1/1pn1pn1p/8/2BP3B/2N2N2/PP3PPP/2RQR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
    1. Bg3 Kh8 2. Qd3 Rg8 3. Nh4 Nh7 4. Qg6 fxg6 5. Nxg6[/pgn]
    moving the bishop to a better diagonal was my idea! 😏 why am i not a famous
    international grandmaster? it defies logic? it really does.
  13. Subscriber Marinkatomb
    wotagr8game
    26 Oct '11 16:44
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    This is a famous game, I would have thought more people would recognize the position?

    The IQP is the key point- White is looking to play d5 effectively and Black's plan is to restrain it and execute it. Standard play.

    If Black were to move they would probably play Nb4-Nd5 maneuver and then Bb7 completing the Blockade.

    If this doesn't make sense I would suggest picking up a copy of Baburin's book on IQP's.
    Haha, i recognise this position from the same book! I think white needs to play the d4-d5 break asap. There is a possibility of playing a3 to prevent blacks Nb4-d5 manoeuvre, but i suspect there is a more dynamic move, possibly d4-d5 immediately...
  14. 26 Oct '11 20:05
    Originally posted by morgski
    This game was unknown to me, but looking at the initial position posted by Tomtom and this move sequence, it is like black commits suicide in a "how many moves can I get mated in?" maneouvre (admittedly with a lovely queen sac though).
    Thaught the same. Because I dont Kh8, Rg8 and Nh7. Can someone explain a bit the rationale behind those moves?
  15. 26 Oct '11 20:17
    Originally posted by tharkesh
    Thaught the same. Because I dont Kh8, Rg8 and Nh7. Can someone explain a bit the rationale behind those moves?
    the major blunder was taking the queen! 😵