Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 28 Jul '10 03:48
    Being new to this, I wanted to asked what constitutes "Fair Play" or "Unfair Play". Obviously, having Fritz play all your moves is cheating. However, I had a couple things I thought about doing, but wasn't sure if it was within the spirit of RHP. I looked in the FAQ's but I didn't see anything.

    1.) Using MCO to help you with an opening or some other opening book/software.
    2.) Looking at the mentor lines in Chessmaster to see where you stand without looking at the upcoming moves. Just seeing if the position is still close or winning/losing.
    3.) Playing out the upcoming moves against a computer to see what happens.

    I think 1 and 2 are okay, but 3 is not. I'd like to hear feedback on this or if you could direct me to the answer. Thanks.
  2. 28 Jul '10 04:09
    Originally posted by arp1407
    Being new to this, I wanted to asked what constitutes "Fair Play" or "Unfair Play". Obviously, having Fritz play all your moves is cheating. However, I had a couple things I thought about doing, but wasn't sure if it was within the spirit of RHP. I looked in the FAQ's but I didn't see anything.

    1.) Using MCO to help you with an opening or some other op ...[text shortened]... ot. I'd like to hear feedback on this or if you could direct me to the answer. Thanks.
    Only 1 is ok.
  3. 28 Jul '10 04:36 / 5 edits
    2 and 3 is cheating.

    What I do is, I have "study time" where I use books, computers, tactics servers, etc etc to improve my chess. Then I have my "game time" where I
    look at the position and eventually make a move. These two are never at the same time. I think this way will help me make my own decisions and
    make the right decisions through trial and error.
    Just looking in some book for the next move because Grandmaster X played it, without understanding it, is a waste.

    Have your "study time" to understand and your game moves will be easy.
    It's not advice, it's just what I do.
  4. 28 Jul '10 04:40
    Too many edits, I'm tired. Bed time.
  5. 28 Jul '10 15:24 / 1 edit
    When it comes to fair play, if I may opine, you should play as if you are playing an over the board game (OTB). You can't have a book or magazine with you during play OTB, so don't use one while playing a RHP game.

    I know that the rules allow you to use books and magazines etc...but to me that is a form of "cheating".

    I feel you'll take your games a little more serious if you played as if you were playing an OTB game. Take what you've learned during your study and try to apply them during your play.

    (shutting up and leaving well enough alone)
  6. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    28 Jul '10 16:31
    Originally posted by arp1407
    Being new to this, I wanted to asked what constitutes "Fair Play" or "Unfair Play". Obviously, having Fritz play all your moves is cheating. However, I had a couple things I thought about doing, but wasn't sure if it was within the spirit of RHP. I looked in the FAQ's but I didn't see anything.

    1.) Using MCO to help you with an opening or some other op ...[text shortened]... ot. I'd like to hear feedback on this or if you could direct me to the answer. Thanks.
    engine use in an on-going rhp game in ANY way is strictly forbidden, and results in a ban. even if unrated. that also applies to endgame tablebases and databases of complete computer games, which are simply cached engine use.

    also 3rd party human assistance is strictly forbidden.

    however, books and databases of human games are allowed. also books with engine correction (why? it's an exception, and that's all there is to it). you're also allowed to engine analyze your openings PRIOR to starting the game. and of course after the game ends.

    other things: no discussing on-going games in the forum, period. BUT you can google up stuff to your heart's content. or look them up from a book.
  7. Standard member Phlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    28 Jul '10 16:55
    Originally posted by chesstora
    When it comes to fair play, if I may opine, you should play as if you are playing an over the board game (OTB). You can't have a book or magazine with you during play OTB, so don't use one while playing a RHP game.

    I know that the rules allow you to use books and magazines etc...but to me that is a form of "cheating".

    I feel you'll take your games ...[text shortened]... dy and try to apply them during your play.

    (shutting up and leaving well enough alone)
    You are not familiar with CC chess vs. OTB then. RHP is a CC chess site. What you consider 'cheating' is not cheating at RHP. This comes up a lot from new users who do not know the difference between CC and OTB.

    By your rules, you can never touch a book again because YOU have games in progress. I hope you stick to the rule you've just made up, or understand that using books is allowed at RHP.

    P-
  8. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    28 Jul '10 17:00
    Originally posted by chesstora
    When it comes to fair play, if I may opine, you should play as if you are playing an over the board game (OTB). You can't have a book or magazine with you during play OTB, so don't use one while playing a RHP game.

    I know that the rules allow you to use books and magazines etc...but to me that is a form of "cheating".

    I feel you'll take your games ...[text shortened]... dy and try to apply them during your play.

    (shutting up and leaving well enough alone)
    Fallacy: OTB style chess is not 'more legitimate' than Corr. They're just different.
  9. 28 Jul '10 17:11 / 1 edit
    SwissGambit; you may have misunderstood my point. My point wasn't OTB is more legimate than CC. The point I was attempting to get across was play your CC as if you were playing OTB.

    Example: If you were playing in an OTB match or tournament you wouldn't pull out a book or magazine as a reference. You try to apply what you have learned in your study time to the debate that is in front of you.

    Even though you are allowed to; don't use reference books during your CC play. That is all I wasy trying to get across.
  10. 28 Jul '10 17:22
    Originally posted by chesstora
    When it comes to fair play, if I may opine, you should play as if you are playing an over the board game (OTB). You can't have a book or magazine with you during play OTB, so don't use one while playing a RHP game.

    I know that the rules allow you to use books and magazines etc...but to me that is a form of "cheating".

    I feel you'll take your games ...[text shortened]... dy and try to apply them during your play.

    (shutting up and leaving well enough alone)
    I have been told that using MCO during a game -- or an on-line site like RHP Games Explorer and following the most popular (ergo, soundest seeming) lines -- isn't cheating on RHP, but it seems undeniable that the lower one is rated, the more using it will boost the record against similarly and lower rated players, especially against those who do not use it. I suppose it is better if we read and absorb the commentary with the idea of eventually weaning off.

    It does seem like cheating to use but not absorb the thinking of someone else or the thinking of the many, without thinking about it ourselves. We are artificially playing like better players than we are. It's like the start of a tournament is a kind of mind-meld sorting out of the game lines, with individual initiative cutting in when the game goes off book.

    It would be interesting if RHP could call on some number of players who rely on these things during games, to volunteer for a study in which they would go without -- to see what happens to their ratings over time and perhaps their enjoyment of the game compared to a control group. Test the hypothesis that there would be a drop in rating and enjoyment, and then, some degree of improvement in both. Of course this would have to be an honorable group. As a test, it could be piloted in one tournament designed and announced for the purpose.
  11. Standard member Phlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    28 Jul '10 17:43
    Originally posted by chesstora
    SwissGambit; you may have misunderstood my point. My point wasn't OTB is more legimate than CC. The point I was attempting to get across was play your CC as if you were playing OTB.

    Example: If you were playing in an OTB match or tournament you wouldn't pull out a book or magazine as a reference. You try to apply what you have learned in your stud ...[text shortened]... to; don't use reference books during your CC play. That is all I wasy trying to get across.
    Do you study chess at home? If so, by your theory you are cheating here at RHP. You can't crack chess books during an OTB game, so therefore you can't crack a book during an RHP game.

    That is the reason books are allowed in CC chess, otherwise as long as you have a game in progress you could never study any chess ever again.

    P-
  12. 28 Jul '10 17:50
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    You are not familiar with CC chess vs. OTB then. RHP is a CC chess site. What you consider 'cheating' is not cheating at RHP. This comes up a lot from new users who do not know the difference between CC and OTB.

    By your rules, you can never touch a book again because YOU have games in progress. I hope you stick to the rule you've just made up, or understand that using books is allowed at RHP.

    P-
    What is OTB?😀
  13. 28 Jul '10 17:56
    Originally posted by JS357
    I have been told that using MCO during a game -- or an on-line site like RHP Games Explorer and following the most popular (ergo, soundest seeming) lines -- isn't cheating on RHP, but it seems undeniable that the lower one is rated, the more using it will boost the record against similarly and lower rated players, especially against those who do not use it. I ...[text shortened]... roup. As a test, it could be piloted in one tournament designed and announced for the purpose.
    This is a silly argument. When you enter the Ruy Lopez with Bb5 are you playing your own move or are you just following theory? It is the same for any other 'book' line. As long as you are not firing up an engine (or another human) then you are not cheating. The whole history of chess is available to every player at every move. Positions are not chess. Chess is evaluations. How often has the sand-made monster glared at me after a game and pronounced me a fool? Many times... My position was great but my ability to evaluate it was lacking. If you consistently achieve plus-equal because of your large library what will that guarantee? I'll guarantee the better player will usually win.
  14. 28 Jul '10 18:14
    Originally posted by wormwood
    engine use in an on-going rhp game in ANY way is strictly forbidden, and results in a ban. even if unrated.
    I fully concur with the spirit behind the statements. However, I have a side remark: there is no valid reason in my mind to 'forbid' engine use in unrated/setup games, if this fits into what both players are up to. It doesn't affect ratings or statistics, yet it allows for a broader approach to coaching, teaching, experimenting, sparring partnering... Perhaps a feature that allows to make such games invisible to the rest of the community could make sense.
  15. 28 Jul '10 18:25
    Originally posted by cheshirecatstevens
    What is OTB?😀
    OTB means "Over The Board", i.e. a normal game, fact to face.
    CC, on the other hand, means "Correspondence Chess". We play CC here.

    The difference between CC and OTB is that you can think quite a while before you respond with a move. You don't even have be at the computer all the time.

    By tradition, CC is played with a lot of tools. Like opening books. (In OTB-games you cannot do that.) You can set up the position on a board and move the pieces around, hw much as you like. (In OTB-games you cannot do that.) You can discuss your game with your friends. (In OTB-games you cannot do that.)

    But the CC-chess here at RHP, you have agreed on not to take help from your frineds, not silocon ones, not human ones. Look further on TOS 3(b) and you know exactly what you can do, and what you cannot do.

    We shouldn't compare OTB with CC. Different set of do's and dont's.