Fritz 13, Let's Check and engine assistance rules on RHP.

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
Basically it's a repository of engine analysis that you can search specific positions in.

Hiya Marinkatomb

Can you clarify:
- Is this a massive database of analysis that you buy with Fritz?
- Or is the analysis generated on the fly if you check a position?

i.e. is the analysis generated by running the engines - taking time, but without any real limit.
Or is it limited by disk-space/money to given size?

To me these questions answer the "letter" of the rules.

I think my first post yesterday answers the "spirit" - choosing which line to take should
remain your choice. Potentially the letter of the rules should be updated.

Cheers,
Gerard

Originally posted by gezza
Hiya Marinkatomb

Can you clarify:
- Is this a massive database of analysis that you buy with Fritz?
- Or is the analysis generated on the fly if you check a position?

i.e. is the analysis generated by running the engines - taking time, but without any real limit.
Or is it limited by disk-space/money to given size?

To me these questions answer the emain your choice. Potentially the letter of the rules should be updated.

Cheers,
Gerard

Let's check is a repository of peoples engine analysis of specific positions (and games). If you have a position you want to analyse, you can click 'Let's check' in Fritz and a few seconds later you have analysis from a load of different engines (not just Fritz, Hiarcs..shredder, etc...) assuming the position has already been analysed.

Whenever i do analysis of a position in fritz, i can add it to the cloud and make it available for others. Basically it's a time saver, doing analysis can be time consuming, if someone has done it already there's no point reinventing the wheel...

With regards to it's use, if i'm analysing a GM game with Fritz or 'Let's check' or both, and i then play a game after that point which happens to follow the same line, is that cheating? What if it was one of my own games? After it is finished, i analyse it using these tools, then play another game in that line. I've already seen where i made mistakes the first time, i can't exactly forget what i've learned... i'm obviously going to have assimilated something from the process...

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
Let's check is a repository of peoples engine analysis of specific positions (and games). If you have a position you want to analyse, you can click 'Let's check' in Fritz and a few seconds later you have analysis from a load of different engines (not just Fritz, Hiarcs..shredder, etc...) assuming the position has already been analysed.

Whenever i do a ...[text shortened]... learned... i'm obviously going to have assimilated something from the process...

If you play from memory a move that you have analyzed previously, it should be permitted. Although there are limits. For instance, if you are analyzing a particular line that seems likely in games in progress, and you reach a position from "Let's Check" with a day or a few days of looking at the computer analysis, then I believe that you have crossed the line.

If you fire up Let's Check for a position in a current game, I don't think there's any room for doubt.

Assimilating ideas from computer analysis that you play at some later date, but without referring again to the computer, on the other hand, is impossible to avoid if you play certain openings regularly and if you are not a Luddite. In that sense, Let's Check is simply the latest exciting development in a process that has been part of chess preparation since the release of the first versions of Chessmaster and Fritz in the 1980s.

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
Let's check is a repository of peoples engine analysis of specific positions (and games). If you have a position you want to analyse, you can click 'Let's check' in Fritz and a few seconds later you have analysis from a load of different engines (not just Fritz, Hiarcs..shredder, etc...) assuming the position has already been analysed.

So it is actually a database the size of the contributor base on the internet.
Not quite infinite, but might as well be. But definitely in the past.
"profit from analysis that has already been done by others"

I guess it bugs me that it is not personal - you have not bought something specific, but rather
there is an access to a batch of on-line data, which could be updated from one day to the next.
In fact, an engine/db-vendor keen to add value, could track unanswered queries and respond.

All of this makes me feel uneasy with it.

I'd be happier if there was a CD/DVD frozen at the start
of the match ("pre-existing research materials" ).

"Normally you switch on your chess engine and wait for a bit" - it has the feel of making engine
analysis even faster, and therefore suitable for post game analysis, but not for use as a database
as you play.

On balance I think it is outside the spirit of the rules, and that the 3.b rules should be changed to
specifically exclude it.

Gezza.

ps. quotes from TOS, and from www.chessbase.com
edit - removed unwanted emoticon

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
After it is finished, i analyse it using these tools, then play another game in that line. I've already seen where i made mistakes the first time, i can't exactly forget what i've learned... i'm obviously going to have assimilated something from the process...

Just to be clear, in my opinion the above is 100% allowed and valid.
You correct the move where you messed up, and you get a bit further.

A stronger player will still win, because he will not follow the engine's 20-move analysis
for the next 20 moves, so you will be out of that analysis and back on your own fairly
quickly. But you do get to learn from the mistake.

Originally posted by gezza
So it is actually a database the size of the contributor base on the internet.
Not quite infinite, but might as well be. But definitely in the past.
"profit from analysis that has [b]already been done by others"

I guess it bugs me that it is not personal - you have not bought something specific, but rather
there is an access to a batch of on-line da ...[text shortened]... zza.

ps. quotes from TOS, and from www.chessbase.com
edit - removed unwanted emoticon[/b]

No i'd never use this during a game, i am talking about using it to analyse my games. But seeing as a play set openings, i reach similar positions regularly. Thus, the difference between using it during the game or before becomes somewhat meaningless..

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
No i'd never use this during a game, i am talking about using it to analyse my games. But seeing as a play set openings, i reach similar positions regularly. Thus, the difference between using it during the game or before becomes somewhat meaningless..

Based on this last post, I suspect you're within the rules. On the other hand, I recall Russ taking a hard line against databases that have engine games, which AFAIK makes this site the most strict (in principal--enforcement may be a separate issue) among correspondence sites.