Originally posted by thec6pawnHi C6!
Hi,
wib: you said that you were going to castle kingside. isn't that considered too dangerous since white's pawn is extended as far as h5? if i play the caro as black, i would adopt the position ...Bd6, ...Qc7, and castle queenside. black's king is very safe (safer on the queenside?) and the queen and bishop combination can be good for black. can you ...[text shortened]... and what i would play if i was playing as black)?
hope these opinions are welcome here. thanks.
Of course your opinions are welcome here. Very welcome in fact!
As for the idea of ...Bd6, ...Qc7, and 0-0-0 for black, yes they're perfectly playable, but they're two very different plans for black.
My plan for now is to advance the c-pawn and attack the center. I'm going to try and use the dark squares and hopefully an open c-file (if I get it) and begin an attack on the white king. Rarely will this attack lead to checkmate. What I'm playing for is space on my queenside, a rook on an open file (hopefully the c-file right in front of White's king) a solid pawn structure, and good chances to win the endgame. Eventually I'll be threatening White's King, but before I can do any of that I have to make sure my king is safe and well defended.
In the variation of the Caro that Zucc and I are playing, White has attacking chances on the kingside. No doubt about it. But black can neutralize those chances by trading off pieces and keeping a solid pawn structure. I don't want the board to open up, especially since I still haven't castled. White is ahead in development and space. Those two factors almost always mean "ATTACK", so I have to be really careful here.
Your plan is entirely different, perfectly fine in my humble opinion, just different. If I had played the bishop to D6 instead of e7, and then my queen to c7, I'd be looking at attacking white on the kingside, but his king is no longer there. In that position the far advanced white H-pawn makes it tough for me to advance my own pawns on that side. White's h-file rook is also a problem for me in that plan. The white f3 knight does make a juicy target though. 🙂
So I guess it comes down to a personal preference.
As for the advanced white H-pawn - I usually go to a board and take all of the pieces off of the board except the kings and pawns for both sides. Put the white king on d1 and the black king on e8. I leave the pawns where they are now. Black's pawns look good and white's aren't bad by any means. But black has great chances in the endgame. Even if you put a rook back on for each side black at worst has a draw. So white's h-pawn is great in the middle game, but kinda weak in an endgame. It's a pawn with a lot of potential if it's involved in an attack, but once the attack fades the h-pawn is misplaced.
Let me know what you think? I'm always up for a new ideas in the Caro. Especially against the Advanced variation. Recently I've tried 3 ...Na6. Saying that I've had mixed results with it is being kind... 🙂
Originally posted by thec6pawnThanks for your interest and comments. I hoped for a few things when we started these games: that others would find them interesting enough to follow and comment on them, and that I would play better when forced to explain my reasoning.
zucchini: ... did you also consider playing 12 Qe2?
I did not consider Qe2, as I did not see it (now I do, but this one is tough for me). I think I like your move order a little better. BTW, this about the fourth time I have played any Caro, so I have a lot to learn.
13 Ne5
Game 659068
[I am trying harder to do my analysis in my head, then check it with the analyze board function. I can already see an improvement in my calculation ability compared with a few months ago.]
Ne5: ...Nxe5 allows me to advance my pawn, switching from one half-open file to another. And I like that my rook is on the same file as Black's queen.
Looking at the weaknesses in the h8-corner,
Nh4 (e.g. ...0-0) sets up Ng6 ...fxg6, Qxg6 and the White queen is strong, e.g. ...Ne8, Bxh6 wins a pawn, destroying Black's king-side pawn cover.
Qe2: Provides backup to e5, but I am happier just placing the knight on e5 directly. (not Qe3, as the queen is easily chased away by the f6-knight.)
13 ...Nxe5
Game 659068
White forces my move here. I cannot allow a white knight to sit on e5. White has the queen, the e5 knight, the g3 knight, and his dark squared bishop all pointing at my kingside. So as usual I need to modify my plan.
I take the e5 knight and attack the queen. White is forced to reply with dxe5 attacking my knight, but I have an inbetween move, trading queens on the d-file. White takes back with the c-pawn going to d3 and then I move my f6 knight to the outpost on d5 where he hopefully will sit and control the center of the board for quite awhile. White's kingside pawns end up slightly weakened and I buy myself some more time.
White still has a lot more space than I do and even after all of the trades white still has a lead in development. But with so many pieces coming off the board a lead in development becomes less important.
So now a plan. My defensive plan has worked ok. I let the attack come forward and I just absorbed it. I traded off pieces whenever I could and tried not to wreck my pawn structure in the process.
With the queens gone my king feels a lot safer, but the rooks are still there and both sides have a bishop and a knight. We both have dark-squared bishops which makes it easier to defend against almost anything else white can throw at me. Unfortunately it also limits my attacking chances since any pawn or square I could attack with my bishop - white can defend with his. I'm still planning to castle kingside. The advanced white h and soon to be (I think?) e-pawns are kinda scary, but I can hold them and their brothers off barring a blunder. I HAVE to get my rooks into the game, at least one, as soon as possible. So castle kingside, gain space on the queenside, keep my pawns working together, go after white's center if I get a chance and try not to screw up. That's pretty much it...
My Caro-Kann knowledge isn't very great, I only know a few variations and lines, and more often than not I tend to head for the classical 4...Bf5 lines.
I just read a little more on the Caro-kann recently. Apparently Eric Lobron fancies the classical caro-kann playing black, and advocates king-side castling followed by advancing his queenside pawns. So I guess it is very playable, but maybe a little dangerous since white's h pawn is very advanced, fixing blacks kingside pawns. That's why I prefer to castle queenside and have my queen and bishop on c7 and d6.
I looked at Zucchini's idea about the knight sac, e.g. 13 Nh4 0-0, 14 Ng6 fxg6, 15 Qxg6 etc. While it blows away the pawn cover to black's king, it probably isn't sufficient for white to win that position as black has extra pieces to provide protection, and white doesn't have enough piece power available to breakthrough. However see http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1257904 for a nice game where a similar sacrifice was employed.
Anyway, let me know what you guys think about the above points.
looked at the knight sac idea a little further.
13 Nh4 0-0, 14 Ng6 fxg6, 15 Qxg6. After 15...Kh8, white seems to not have anymore useful moves left to continue his attack and still remains a piece down. 15...Ne8? seems weak as it allows the unclear 16 Qxe6+ Kh8, 17 Bxh6!? I couldn't see any way for white to make progress, but it certainly looks more promising as white gets 3 pawns for the piece compensation, and completely annihilates blacks king position. instead, the line 15 Qxg6 Ne8, 16 Bxh6?? is a blunder because 16...Rf6! wins the bishop outright since the queen must move.
Originally posted by thec6pawnI can never get those chessgames.com pages to load when they have a game in them. Which internet browser are you using? Java applets seems to work fine for me with everything else. I tried the latest version of Opera and Internet Explorer. Both failed.
My Caro-Kann knowledge isn't very great, I only know a few variations and lines, and more often than not I tend to head for the classical 4...Bf5 lines.
I just read a little more on the Caro-kann recently. Apparently Eric Lobron fancies the classical caro-kann playing black, and advocates king-side castling followed by advancing his queenside pawns. ...[text shortened]... ilar sacrifice was employed.
Anyway, let me know what you guys think about the above points.
Thanks!
I'm using Internet Explorer 6.0 to view the games at Chessgames.com and I have no problems at all. If you cannot view the games, I just don't know what the problem could be.
I'll give the moves of the game in question if you want to see the game.
Beliavsky vs Larsen
1 e4 c6, 2 d4 d5, 3 Nc3 dxe4, 4 Nxe4 Bf5, 5 Ng3 Bg6, 6 h4 h6, 7 Nf3 Nd7, 8 h5 Bh7, 9 Bd3 Bxd3, 10 Qxd3 Ngf6, 11 Bf4 e6, 12 0-0-0 Be7, 13 Ne5 a5, 14 Rhe1 a4, 15 Ng6 Nd5, 16 Nf5 Bf8, 17 Bd6 Rg8, 18 c4 Nb4, 19 Qh3 fxg6, 20 Rxe6+ Kf7, 21 hxg6+ Kxe6, 22 Re1+ Ne5, 23 Bxe5, resigns
14 dxNe5
Game 659068
I missed the queen trade! Not what I wanted, but I'll have to work with it. I think I'm commited to this as I don't see an alternative now.
I won't mind having the two advanced pawns, but it will be work to find a way to use them and to protect them.
14 ...Qxd3
Game 659068
Trading queens. Gaining a little space for myself. Closing the d-file for white and leaving it half-open for me. And trying to create an outpost on d5 for my f6 knight to run to.
I still need to get my rooks into the game and my bishop is doing an impression of a fence post, but other than that I don't see any problems. White still has most of the advantages since the opening, but trading off queens help alleviate an attack from white. Now the game gets a little more subtle and slows down.
15 cxQd3
Game 659068
What happened to the nice lead I established with my first move? The position still looks pretty much even to me. Looking at the board with all the pieces removed, I see no advantage to either side.
Too bad about the queen trade, but I stepped in it so I better clean up.
Recapture is forced.
Originally posted by zucchini15 ...Nd5
[b]15 cxQd3
Game 659068
What happened to the nice lead I established with my first move? The position still looks pretty much even to me. Looking at the board with all the pieces removed, I see no advantage to either side.
Too bad about the queen trade, but I stepped in it so I better clean up.
Recapture is forced.[/b]
Game 659068
Ng4 looked tempting though. It forks the white f and e pawns, but it gets tactical and my knight can't get back to d5 later. It also violates one of the rules I abide by, don't grab pawns if it gives your opponent counterplay. I like the knight on d5 better.
The main threat I see from white now is a kingside pawn push.
16 Ne2
Game 659068
Good position for that knight. It effectively takes away all moves from my bishop. I think it is best if I try to trade it off. I like Ne2-c3 threatening NxNd5, because a recapture with the b-pawn brings me connected center pawn.
Ne2: for the circuit above to trade or force back the knight. Following this with a3 and g3 will likely force the knight back.
a3: frees the bishop from guard duty over b4
f4: supports e5
b]16 ...0-0[/b]
Game 659068
The plan:
I need to get a rook into the game, gain space on the queenside by pushing those pawns, connect my rooks, and get my king out of the center. I know white wants to get rid of my d5 knight because he just told me. 🙂 . So I also need to figure out how to either stop that or let white trade and try to find a way to benefit from the trade.
My options:
0-0-0, Nope. That would put my rook on the half open d-file and attack white's d-pawn if my knight moved from d5 (and that's good). But it also gives my kingside rook nothing to do. He'd be stuck until I could advance the d-file rook up the file. 0-0-0 also makes it more dangerous to advance my a,b, and c pawns.
Bc5. That looked good for a bit. It attacks white's f-pawn. But if I play Bc5 white can just play d4. Now my bishop has to retreat to b6. That blocks in my b-pawn. That goes against my longterm plan. I need the queenside pawns to be able to advance.
F6. If white recaptures with the e-pawn (exf6), then I recapture with my bishop. This aims my bishop at the white b-pawn and castled king. Not bad. But that changes the game a lot. I'm stuck with an isolated e-pawn and my king hiding behind it on a half-open file. Of course white has an isolated d-pawn after all of that too. I like my attacking chances in that position, but it wrecks the solidity of my position at the same time. That looked tricky. White really wouldn't HAVE to capture my f-pawn anyway. He's got other choices there.
C5. Nope. Too soon for that. My king is still in the middle and my rooks are fence posts.
0-0. Yep. That keeps my king on the kingside for safety and defense, frees up my kingside rook to go to d8, and allows my queenside rook to stay on the queenside to support my pawn advance there.
If white plays Nc3 here I'll probably play Rd8. I'll trade knights, if white chooses that, and take back with the rook. That stays with my plan and my rook takes control of the d-file.
17 f4
Game 659068
After Black has castled king-side, I am considering a pawn push to open up the king's defenses.
I think my king is fairly safe on the queen-side, as I don't see how Black's knight or bishop can break in. So I don't see a need to try to force the knight backward. Also, I don't think the knight or bishop can make any advances into my king-side territory. For me, I think that any queen-side pawn move or bishop move loosens my position.
f4: followed by g4 gives me a good chance at removing the g7 pawn.
Nc3: offering a trade, which I think does neither of us any particular good.