3 edits
Originally posted by Mad Rookyes it is Rook, thanks sooo much, been searching for it for ages, Pirc defence,
Hi Robbie, is this it?
http://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=2534132
awesome! Now here is the thing, Golombek, who spent time with Alexander during the
II world war, as a decoder, said of this position, that black cannot take the bishop pawn
because of Bc5 regaining the pawn with advantage for white, but i dont think its true
what do you think? can black take the pawn?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? 🙂
what do you think? can black take the pawn?
My 1200 opinion is, I'd take the pawn, but what do I know? (Yeah, I'd also grab the f-pawn if given the chance.)
My box sort of alternates between preferring ...Qxb4 and ...Qc7. It even gives ...Qa3 as a 3rd choice. But in all cases, it gives the edge to White, maybe half a pawn.
2 edits
Originally posted by Mad Rookyes, i was talking to you my friend, you'd take the pawn, so would I, half a pawn advantage to white you say, meh, its better than nuthin i suppose. What about Golombecks remarks that white takes the pawn back, i assume he must mean, Bxe7, so we have the line ...Qxb4, Bc5 Qxf4 and Bxe7, is this still an advantage for white? after say ...Rf7, Bc4 and . . .e6, i cant believe it.
You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? 🙂
My 1200 opinion is, I'd take the pawn, but what do I know? (Yeah, I'd also grab the f-pawn if given the chance.)
My box sort of alternates between preferring ...Qxb4 and ...Qc7. It even gives ...Qa3 as a 3rd choice. But in all cases, it gives the edge to White, maybe half a pawn.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIf 16...Qxb4, the box wouldn't immediately play 17. Bc5. It would play a different and much messier variation. (17. Rhb1 or Rab1) The line you give (16...Qxb4 17.Bc5 Qxf4 18. Bxe7) is roughly equal.
yes, i was talking to you my friend, you'd take the pawn, so would I, half a pawn advantage to white you say, meh, its better than nuthin i suppose. What about Golombecks remarks that white takes the pawn back, i assume he must mean, Bxe7, so we have the line ...Qxb4, Bc5 Qxf4 and Bxe7, is this still an advantage for white? after say ...Rf7, Bc4 and . . .e6, i cant believe it.
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1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI believe your last move ... e6 is impossible since that pawn was just taken with Bxe7.
What about Golombecks remarks that white takes the pawn back, i assume he must mean, Bxe7, so we have the line ...Qxb4, Bc5 Qxf4 and Bxe7, is this still an advantage for white? after say ...Rf7, Bc4 and . . .e6, i cant believe it.
Perhaps fxe5 is interesting at some point, since it connects the rook and queen on the f-file, on which white's king is positioned.
Edit: By the way: if ... Rf7, then e6 is interesting for white (is this what you meant perhaps?)
Originally posted by tvochessyes you are correct, its what happens when one tries to do these things in ones 'minds eye', yes, ...e6 is impossible 😳
I believe your last move ... e6 is impossible since that pawn was just taken with Bxe7.
Perhaps fxe5 is interesting at some point, since it connects the rook and queen on the f-file, on which white's king is positioned.
Edit: By the way: if ... Rf7, then e6 is interesting for white (is this what you meant perhaps?)
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Originally posted by Mad Rookyour 1200 opinion is as good as mine and robbies 1600-1700 opinion in these games 🙂
You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? 🙂
My 1200 opinion is, I'd take the pawn, but what do I know? (Yeah, I'd also grab the f-pawn if given the chance.)
My box sort of alternates between preferring ...Qxb4 and ...Qc7. It even gives ...Qa3 as a 3rd choice. But in all cases, it gives the edge to White, maybe half a pawn.
personally i'd usually take the pawn but blacks position is so bad i might think about centering the queen to get some sort of attacking defense going.
Hi Robbie.
Plater went into the same line as Black 7 years later and followed
the first 15 moves of the Alexander game. White deviates first.
B.Pietrusiak - K.Plater, Warsaw 1964
It's a cracking game. White is all over Black when it appears out of desparation
Black sacs for a a perpetual...and gets it!
One of the very interesting unplayed variations was here. White to play.
This PGN could not be parsed.
[FEN "r1bq1r1k/ppR3bp/4p1p1/4N3/5P2/1B2Q1P1/PP5P/4R1K1 w - - 0 1"]
1. Nf7+ Rxf7 2. Rxf7 Bd4 {This looks good but....} 3. Rf8+ {if 3...Kg7 then 4.RxQ BxQ+ 5.RxB White is a piece up.} 3..Qxf8 4. Qxd4+ Qg7 5. Qd8+ Qg8 6. Qxg8+ Kxg8 7. Rc1 {This is better than grabbing the e6 pawn. The Rook hits the 7th. It's the kind of no risk in losing and every chance of winning position a GM takes. }
- line 3: Unrecognised token '.Qxf8'
- move 6 could not be played: Invalid PGN : Error converting move Qxd4
[FEN "r1bq1r1k/ppR3bp/4p1p1/4N3/5P2/1B2Q1P1/PP5P/4R1K1 w - - 0 1"]
1. Nf7+ Rxf7 2. Rxf7 Bd4 {This looks good but....} 3. Rf8+ {if 3...Kg7 then 4.RxQ BxQ+ 5.RxB White is a piece up.} 3..Qxf8 4. Qxd4+ Qg7 5. Qd8+ Qg8 6. Qxg8+ Kxg8 7. Rc1 {This is better than grabbing the e6 pawn. The Rook hits the 7th. It's the kind of no risk in losing and every chance of winning position a GM takes. }
I think White saw this and tried to squeeze an extra trick in.
He played Rc1 and Black baited him with b6.
This PGN could not be parsed.
[FEN "r1bq1r1k/ppR3bp/4p1p1/4N3/5P2/1B2Q1P1/PP5P/4R1K1 w - - 0 1"]
1. Rec1 b6 {Now we try the same unplayed variation again.} 2. Nf7+ Rxf7 3. Rxf7 Bd4 4. Rf8+ {4....Kg7 now works because Black takes the White Queen with check he aslo picks up the c1 Rook. It's a good trap from Black. White re-checked his lines and saw this defence, I think when he played Rc1 he was going for. } 4..Qxf8 5. Qxd4+ Qg7 6. Qd8+ Qg8 7. Qxg8+ Kxg8 8. Rxc8+ Rxc8 9. Bxe6+ {Maybe...Maybe not...Rec1 is a good move for other reasons. Just wondered why he never went for Nf7+ in the first variation.}
- line 3: Unrecognised token '.Qxf8'
- move 8 could not be played: Invalid PGN : Error converting move Qxd4
[FEN "r1bq1r1k/ppR3bp/4p1p1/4N3/5P2/1B2Q1P1/PP5P/4R1K1 w - - 0 1"]
1. Rec1 b6 {Now we try the same unplayed variation again.} 2. Nf7+ Rxf7 3. Rxf7 Bd4 4. Rf8+ {4....Kg7 now works because Black takes the White Queen with check he aslo picks up the c1 Rook. It's a good trap from Black. White re-checked his lines and saw this defence, I think when he played Rc1 he was going for. } 4..Qxf8 5. Qxd4+ Qg7 6. Qd8+ Qg8 7. Qxg8+ Kxg8 8. Rxc8+ Rxc8 9. Bxe6+ {Maybe...Maybe not...Rec1 is a good move for other reasons. Just wondered why he never went for Nf7+ in the first variation.}
Here is the full game.
this is really great GP, thanks for that. Since i have been reading my Golombek book there are hundreds of gems from the 1950's full of bristling ideas from Keres and Bronstein, not materialistic chess like we see now, but creative chess, sacking pawns to keep the initiative, Bronstein in one game sacks a well placed knight as black and gains three passed queenside pawns in return, its astounding chess.
50's was a great era.
Fishcer & Tal were teenagers and their games are full of the confidence of youth.
Especially Tal. And of course the games of Spassky who played some sparkling
games at that time. This makes up for the methodical games of Botvinnik
who ruled during that decade.
Bronstein has always had the magic. If you can get your hands on
Paul Keres 'The early and middle years. 1929 - 1952' then you are in for a treat.