Junior Grades

Perhaps I'm being dense, but last night I played for the University's B-team against a team of juniors. My opponent has a grade of 85 (but has been one of the top performers in the whole region this season). He was black:



So my theory is; junior grades mean nothing. Discuss.

Originally posted by Meadows
Perhaps I'm being dense, but last night I played for the University's B-team against a team of juniors. My opponent has a grade of 85 (but has been one of the top performers in the whole region this season). He was black:

[pgn][Event "Bristol League - Division 4"]
[Date "2010.2.15"]
[White "Meadows"]
[Black "Opponent"]
[Result "1-0"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf ...[text shortened]... e5+ Kd7 49. Rxe8 1-0[/pgn]

So my theory is; junior grades mean nothing. Discuss.

more like English chess federation grades mean nothing, what's wrong with an ELO like everyone else on the planet?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
more like English chess federation grades mean nothing, what's wrong with an ELO like everyone else on the planet?

Well sure, you'll get no debate from me on that.

But I'll bet the point stands in FIDE or USCF grades.

Originally posted by Meadows
Well sure, you'll get no debate from me on that.

But I'll bet the point stands in FIDE or USCF grades.

yes perhaps, i wish i could comment on that, dont really know enough about it myself. What is the point you are making, that the kids grade showed no correlation to his performance, simply because he was ranked as a junior and thus its inflated? what is your grade in ECF terms if you dont mind me asking? why were you paired together? id love to be in a chess club but i could not commit to away games because of family responsibilities 🙁

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes perhaps, i wish i could comment on that, dont really know enough about it myself. What is the point you are making, that the kids grade showed no correlation to his performance, simply because he was ranked as a junior and thus its inflated? what is your grade in ECF terms if you dont mind me asking? why were you paired together? id love to be in a chess club but i could not commit to away games because of family responsibilities 🙁

What I should have stated more explicity was that junior grades are often really misleading, even ignoring the whole nonsense of ridiculously inflated junior grades. In this game, this "85" grade (which I believe translates to an ELO of about 1600) played way above that. This is probably the furthest I've gone into theory, and he correctly sacrificed the exchange on c3, which itself doesn't prove anything but I'm impressed.

My ECF is 134, although my performance for the season is currently about 150 (I'll be bringing that down soon). We were paired together because of a league match in the "Bristol & District Chess League", I play for the University of Bristol and he played for the team of local juniors.

Originally posted by Meadows
What I should have stated more explicity was that junior grades are often really misleading, even ignoring the whole nonsense of ridiculously inflated junior grades. In this game, this "85" grade (which I believe translates to an ELO of about 1600) played way above that. This is probably the furthest I've gone into theory, and he correctly sacrifice ...[text shortened]... ague", I play for the University of Bristol and he played for the team of local juniors.

i see, its not you that's dense its me! there are a number of extenuating circumstances which may have a bearing, perhaps the dragon is his 'pet' line in the Sicilian, it very well might be as a junior and he knows the theory quite well including exchange sacrifice, perhaps he is really quite talented and found the moves at the board? were you thinking, wow this kid knows what he is doing? i am in for a lesson? oh the ignominy if he wins, as you raise your clenched fist cursing those who made up junior grades!

Hi Meadows.

What is there to discuss. A typical junior game.

A junior follows theory, probably not understanding why he sacs
the Ox on c3 except that it's book.

A soon as his theory ends he is clueless......1-0.

(when did his knowledge end because the game looked very comfortable for you)

is 18...e6 theory? 18...Nc4 looks better.
You will have to tell me as I don't play this garbage for either side.

I've seen 18...Nc4 before because I have this game in my memory.
It may be one of those standard draws that players use to avoid
the anti-quick draw rule.
Both Queens have nothing more than perpetual check.



Now you. 😉

Why did you not sac back the Ox and win a piece here with 24.Rxd7



instead to you played 24.Qd4.

And the final wrap up was a tad sloppy. Here White to play. (obviously)



You played 46.Kf6 but 46.Kd7! and the Knight is doomed.



Yes it's a nit pick.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Meadows.

What is there to discuss. A typical junior game.

A junior follows theory, probably not understanding why he sacs
the Ox on c3 except that it's book.

A soon as his theory ends he is clueless......1-0.

(when did his knowledge end because the game looked very comfortable for you)

is 18...e6 theory? 18...Nc4 looks better.
You wi ...[text shortened]... doomed.

[fen]5k2/2nK4/6p1/R6p/P6P/8/2P3P1/8 b - - 0 46[/fen]

Yes it's a nit pick.

Blimey, I wasn't expecting some GP analysis. Awesome! Thanks for that.

His knowledge ended a bit earlier than you expected, around move 12. I guess he was playing moves afterwards that look dragon-ish like the Ne5 manoeuvre and the Rxc3 sacrifice.

24. Rxd7 is definitely better. I missed it. I was obsessed with getting the queens off and going for an endgame I thought I could win and when something better presented itself I missed it.

47. Kd7 too, I missed. This time it was more of a time trouble issue. From about move 35 we were down to uncomfortable time. Usually the league matches are 90 minutes, but the junior matches have to finish earlier so they have a 65 minute limit.

OK. I thought he followed theory including the Rook exhange sac.
In that case he played the c3 ox sac on his own, which is not too bad.

I've seen a few junior games where they play out 10-12 book moves
and resign a few moves later. Still it's dodgy taking on a good junior's book.
I get them on thier own ASAP.

Juniors TC's differ in other leagues as well and the quick control favours
them as they are used to it.

Your opponent has scary eyes. I'd have offered him a draw on move five and run away as fast as possible.
http://www.chessit.co.uk/Congresses/Bristol%20Winter%202009/Photos/Tom%20Thorpe%201.jpg

Originally posted by Fat Lady
Your opponent has scary eyes. I'd have offered him a draw on move five and run away as fast as possible.
http://www.chessit.co.uk/Congresses/Bristol%20Winter%202009/Photos/Tom%20Thorpe%201.jpg

he looks a bit like a she?

The guy in the back of the photo is whispering in his ear:
"They are handing over the check, get ready for slaughter and secure the prize at my command".

Or maybe he just has a rash, I dunno.

Originally posted by zozozozo
he looks a bit like a she?

The guy in the back of the photo is whispering in his ear:
"They are handing over the check, get ready for slaughter and secure the prize at my command".

Or maybe he just has a rash, I dunno.

the cheque is for a hundred pounds, not bad, not bad at all! would buy at least a round in Sandy Bells bar i reckon.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the cheque is for a hundred pounds, not bad, not bad at all! would buy at least a round in Sandy Bells bar i reckon.

He bought me nothing!

AFAIK, juniors have a little bit added on to their calculated grade to account for anticipated improvement over the next year. Problem is, obviously some improve much faster than others. There's a 14 year old in the Leicestershire league whose rating graph goes 84, 97, 122, 147, 199 from 2005-2009. So there's potentially 50 points difference between the grade they have and the grade they actually are.

I think the main point of the revised ECF grades was to adjust some artificially low junior grades upward. It's certainly had that effect in the league I play in.

I hate playing juniors. I feel bad if I win, and worse if I lose.