Large DB of chessgames 140646 games!

Originally posted by pineapple42
well, that would be using fritz/junior/whatever to choose you next move... or could it be classed as preparation? Would it be ligitimate to take my past games, analyse them all, find my blunders, and next time play the improved move (which, quite naturally was generated by an engine, and i've placed in the notes against my past game)?

well.. actually.. thats called learning. If that is considered cheating, I can guarantee many many would be cheating on this site, including myself. I have used fritz to run an analysis of over 60% of my games so that I don't make the same mistakes.. I haven't had a chance to go back and read them all, but., I have some and have made improvements accordingly.
We will await what the game mods say, but their decision here could have a profound impact on the site and its workings.

Game Mods
Wonder if there has been more thought to this yet? I haven't touched the DB until confirmed ok.

A clarification of Section 3(b) of the Terms of Service

It is extremely unlikely that a database, no matter how large, would be consulted thoughout a game of reasonable length by both players. However, if a past game was substantially followed, and was orginally played by one or more computers/engines, it could be considered as evidence of engine use. The onus, therefore, is on each player to avoid relying on such games in their databases. The prior existence of engine games would not be considered a defence against engine use.

A database, for the purposes of the Terms of Service, should consist of previously played games only. An endgame tablebase, i.e. Namilov, is not a database under this definition. Using an endgame tablebase to assist you in a game is cheating and a violation of section 3(b).

- The Game Mod Team

The above clarification is consistent with the replies I gave to similar questions in this thread:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=29545&page=12

At the risk of sounding stupid - what exactly is an endgame table database? is that when you have a database and you install the keys so that they are all classified into certain types .. ie.. end game key, opening key, sacrifice key.. etc ?

Originally posted by MIODude
At the risk of sounding stupid - what exactly is an endgame table database? is that when you have a database and you install the keys so that they are all classified into certain types .. ie.. end game key, opening key, sacrifice key.. etc ?

All about endgame tablebases:

http://www.aarontay.per.sg/Winboard/egtb.html

They were also discussed at length in this thread:

http://www.chessatwork.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=29426&page=3

But the restriction on EGTB's does not apply directly to your question.

From what I can gather the database you want to use is perfectly legal. However, because it contains engine-vs-engine games, you take a risk using it much beyond the established opining lines. Of course, the likelyhood that you could use it beyond the opening lines is extremely remote. But the onus is on you to avoid over-reliance on past engine-vs-engine games, not because they are illegal per se, but because they might adversely influence any future investigation into your games.

When games are anlysed for engine use, established opening lines are ignored. It is during this phase that books and databases can help you most, including the database you describe.

Beyond that point you should be on your own, and playing your own game.

Thanks Gatecrasher for the info.. I can see why endgame tablebases are illegal .. I had heard people use that term before, but never really knew what they were..

Originally posted by Gatecrasher
A clarification of Section 3(b) of the Terms of Service

It is extremely unlikely that a database, no matter how large, would be consulted thoughout a game of reasonable length by both players. However, if a past game was substantially followed, and was orginally played by one or more computers/engines, it could be considered as evidence of engine use. ...[text shortened]... ase to assist you in a game is cheating and a violation of section 3(b).

- The Game Mod Team

Can you put these interpretations in a separate page on the site? (the Game mods page, for instance, or better yet, create one!). All the news I get from the mods is from the threads and they can be easily lost in the number of threads that are created here. (yes, I know you can search for them, but with some difficulty).

I'm putting this into the site ideas page and creating a thread for it.

Originally posted by XanthosNZ


There's no problem with using databases no matter the source.

Yeh but if you're accused, how do you defend yourself?

Originally posted by Gatecrasher
From what I can gather the database you want to use is perfectly legal. However, because it contains engine-vs-engine games, you take a risk using it much beyond the established opining lines. Of course, the likelyhood that you [b]could use it beyond the opening lines is extremely remote. But the onus is on you to avoid over-reliance on past engine- ...[text shortened]... atabase you describe.

Beyond that point you should be on your own, and playing your own game.[/b]

I have thousands of engine-engine, as well as many engine-human games in my database of well over 2.6 million games. The longest I've ever followed another game in a correspondence match was 23 moves. The game we followed was Leko-Adams, and my opponent improved upon Adams' play.

Assuming it was an engine-engine game that my opponent and I followed 23 moves. The odds of continuing to do so for five more moves is nearly infinitesimal--one in millions. These odds change dramatically, of course, if there is a forced checkmate in a short number of moves (a situation that almost never occurs in engine-engine games).

The rule clarification posted here adds some ambiguity and room for abuse by administrators. Otherwise, it should not come into play.

The simple statement that engine use during a game is forbidden, while engine games in a database remain appropriate "book" research sources seems fully adequate to me.