Originally posted by cmsMasterMaybe I am a little bit behind the times with the Pirc, but I was under the impression that 8...Bxb5 was worse than 8...fxe6. If you are looking for wild positions, 8...fxe6 might be even better!
That's not what I'm talking about though. I mean that I think a lot of people would struggle with some of the more difficult pawn breaks, etc. that are necessary to understand if you want to be successful with the pirc.
Also, I don't like your Austrian Attack line, I prefer:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.e6 Bxb5 9 ...[text shortened]... fore, but I looked through it, and I kind of like it. I may have to try that line sometime.
2 edits
Originally posted by !~TONY~!As ever you're on the money. Later on I'll post some notes in a new thread from "the Pirc in Black and White" (maybe one day I'll be able to do it without the book) as there are some very interesting notes for this line. I'll switch to a new thread as it's veering off topic from the original question.
Maybe I am a little bit behind the times with the Pirc, but I was under the impression that 8...Bxb5 was worse than 8...fxe6. If you are looking for wild positions, 8...fxe6 might be even better!
And with regard to the original question it's not at all necessary to learn all these details to start playing a line. You pick this up over time. While the Pirc isn't a surprise, it's not so well known as The Sicilian, French, etc.
The problem you'll find with a "surprise" opening is that if it's weak you'll soon find yourself outplayed by a stronger opponent as they will work out how to play against it very quickly. The unusual/suprise openings are unusual because they are not so stable.
Against a decent opponent you're unlikely to get ahead in the opening so instead you might want to aim to get into the middle game roughly "even" and with a position you're familiar with - then concentrate on developing your tactics to chuck surprises at them.
1 edit
Originally posted by DrakeFoxI'd be a little surprised if a 1400 level player was very prepared for anything. You're better off focusing on finding a nice sound defence that fits your chess temperment and which you can build your understanding of it (and therefore chess in general) with over time as you gain experiennce with it and do some study of it.
Well, right now I'm actually looking for something fairly stable to use as a surprise weapon, something my opponent probably wouldn't have prepared much for.
Some ideas:
If you like symmetrical open games where you and your opp have structurally similar positions but white has a slight initiative you can fight for, play 1... e5. Then you need to narrow it a little further as you gain experience with the major 1. e4 e5 openings and gambits.
If you don't like symmetry but like a good solid setup where you can try to grind your opp down then play the French or the Caro.
If you want something a little sharper play the Scandinavian. If you want sharper still, take up the Sicilian.
If you prefer very complex, unbalanced positions that can be open or closed (or closed but open up at any time) play the Pirc.
I'm really simplifying and generalizing there I know. There is nothing safe and sound about the French Winawer, for instance, but black isn't obliged to play that in the French anyway. The idea is to find something that suits you and that you enjoy playing. I started out playing 1... e5 and the Italian type stuff (1... e5, Nc6, Bc5, etc) before getting bored of its symmetry and wanting to try something different. So I tried the Pirc, which didn't suit me at all. Then the French for a few months, but it didn't seem to fit either. Then various lines in the Sicilian over about a year before settling down with the line I've been playing the last 3 years. So it might not happen over night, if it does great, if it doesn't at least enjoy the ride 😉
Originally posted by scandiumIf you got bored of playing 1...e5 you weren't playing the right kind of openings 😉
I'd be a little surprised if a 1400 level player was very prepared for anything. You're better off focusing on finding a nice sound defence that fits your chess temperment and which you can build your understanding of it (and therefore chess in general) with over time as you gain experiennce with it and do some study of it.
Some ideas:
If you like sym ...[text shortened]... might not happen over night, if it does great, if it doesn't at least enjoy the ride 😉
Personally I think you need to be quite a strong player to play 1...e5 or 1...c5 well and certainly wouldn't recommend it to someone who hasn't played for long.
Recommending a sharp/simple opening is very difficult if not impossible, becuase sharp openings usual equals lots of theory, that an inexperienced player should not be worried about.
2 edits
Originally posted by !~TONY~!In their recent book, "An Explosive Chess Opening Repertoire for Black", Yrjola and Tella recommend 1...d6 against all of White's opening moves.
Maybe I am a little bit behind the times with the Pirc, but I was under the impression that 8...Bxb5 was worse than 8...fxe6. If you are looking for wild positions, 8...fxe6 might be even better!
They recommend the Pirc, but note that after 8...fxe6 White can force a draw. Black has to play the slightly suspect 8...Bxb5 if he or she is in a "must win" situation.
Originally posted by gaychessplayerBy coincidence I've posted the drawing line in a new thread - the book I quoted makes the point that white players don't typically play the Austrian attack with the intention of forcing a draw.
In their recent book, "An Explosive Chess Opening Repertoire for Black", Yrjola and Tella recommend 1...d6 against all of White's opening moves.
They recommend the Pirc, but note that after 8...fxe6 White can force a draw. Black has to play the slightly suspect 8...Bxb5 if he or she is in a "must win" situation.
Originally posted by najdorfslayerI wasn't playing the right kind of openings then, no, that is true and in hindsight that's clear now. But I have a strong preference for asymmetrical openings and I get that with the Sicilian. I wouldn't be averse to playing 1... e5 now only it'd be hard to start from scratch again there since there's a lot of theory involved and I've improved a lot since I played it.
If you got bored of playing 1...e5 you weren't playing the right kind of openings 😉
Personally I think you need to be quite a strong player to play 1...e5 or 1...c5 well and certainly wouldn't recommend it to someone who hasn't played for long.
Once you make gains in playing strength and become familiar with a certain opening its hard to start over with something new. However regardless of your strength, if you don't have an opening then one could do worse than 1... e5. After all you have to play something. When you're starting from zero IMHO its less about what you play and more about whether you enjoy it since later on you'll have so much invested that you're probably not going to have to want to start from scratch with something else.
Originally posted by MahoutI would agree that it would be quite the rare occurance for White to play the Austrian Attack if he was only playing for a draw. On the other hand, Black should know the 8...Bxb5 line if he is playing a weaker player who would be happy to initiate the drawing line.
By coincidence I've posted the drawing line in a new thread - the book I quoted makes the point that white players don't typically play the Austrian attack with the intention of forcing a draw.
I view choosing openings as choosing a relationship...worth trying a few before you settle down but once you've made a commitment it's better to stay through good times and bad. Mind you I have a mistress - The Trompovsky - 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 and I get up to all sorts with this line.
The Pirc I chose for the ridiculous reason that I liked the name which I was pronouncing as you would say Turk but with a P at the beginning. Recently I acquired the Nigel Davies chessbase CD on this opening and discovered the correct pronunciation is quite unpleasant to my ear as the i is sounded like the ee in Pee so you get - Peerks - yuk. It has lead me to eye up the Caro Kan but I'm probably better off with what I know.
Originally posted by MahoutOf all the reasons to abandon an opening, that would probably be the funniest 😉
I view choosing openings as choosing a relationship...worth trying a few before you settle down but once you've made a commitment it's better to stay through good times and bad. Mind you I have a mistress - The Trompovsky - 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 and I get up to all sorts with this line.
The Pirc I chose for the ridiculous reason that I liked the name which I ...[text shortened]... ks - yuk. It has lead me to eye up the Caro Kan but I'm probably better off with what I know.
Originally posted by DrakeFoxA couple of points that jump to mind after reading the many interesting posts here -
Hi, I'm looking for a nice, tactical surprise weapon to use as black against e4. Not sure where to start, any suggestions?
1. Almost any opening can be played dynamically or quietly. There are Caro players who play the opening aggressively and Sicilian players who play solidly. Also, your opponent doesn't have to cooperate and can often force you into lines that are outside your comfort zone.
2. Chess is about having fun (at least for the vast majority of non-titled players), so choose an opening that you enjoy. That being said, top players almost unanimously say that players should play 1...e5 until they reach a high rating (some say 2000 or 2200). Understanding the closed Spanish is something that benefits every aspiring chess player. In addition, for white to gain an advantage against 1..e5, the Spanish is really the only choice (the Scotch being the only possible alternative). However, most non-master players try some gambit or quiet line like the four knights, and Black has great chanced to take over the initiative and gain an advantage.
Just my two cents,
Scott
Originally posted by smrex13There is certainly some truth to that. That said, I think if you're a sharp player you have an easier time of it if if you work within an already sharp opening. Ditto for solid players who play solid openings. And you're right that occasionally you get lured outside your comfort zone, but as you build up your experience with your chosen opening that comfort zone expands to include more and more lines.
A couple of points that jump to mind after reading the many interesting posts here -
1. Almost any opening can be played dynamically or quietly. There are Caro players who play the opening aggressively and Sicilian players who play solidly. Also, your opponent doesn't have to cooperate and can often force you into lines that are outside your comfort zone.
Scott
I agree with your second point completely. A newer player can learn a lot about tactics, fighting for the initiative, and symmetrical endgame play by answering 1. e4 with 1... e5.
Originally posted by scandiumAgreed 😉
I wasn't playing the right kind of openings then, no, that is true and in hindsight that's clear now. But I have a strong preference for asymmetrical openings and I get that with the Sicilian. I wouldn't be averse to playing 1... e5 now only it'd be hard to start from scratch again there since there's a lot of theory involved and I've improved a lot since I ...[text shortened]... t you're probably not going to have to want to start from scratch with something else.