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  1. Subscriber 64squaresofpain On Vacation
    The drunk knight
    29 Nov '13 20:31
    Greetings players and fellow patzers,

    In the game below, finished earlier today, I thought I had an early chance to win a pawn and gain an advantage,
    so imagine my enlightening surprise when Mr. Fritz tells me that I should have dropped a piece!

    I'm sure someone will come along and tell me that this particular missed sequence isn't new and has happened many times(?)

    Anyway I enjoyed the game no less 🙂

  2. 29 Nov '13 21:12 / 1 edit
    This is known as the Elephant Trap.

    However, as Greenpawn will doubtless tell you, it's not a real trap at all.
    See Thread 154164 (search for "Elephant" )

    Also this blog:
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/blog/blogread.php?blogpostid=84
  3. Subscriber 64squaresofpain On Vacation
    The drunk knight
    30 Nov '13 00:22 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Fat Lady
    This is known as the Elephant Trap.

    However, as Greenpawn will doubtless tell you, it's not a real trap at all.
    See Thread 154164 (search for "Elephant" )

    Also this blog:
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/blog/blogread.php?blogpostid=84
    Ah, thanks very much Fat Lady 🙂 (i'd love to be able to say that to someone in person!)

    EDIT: I just noticed that I posted in that thread.... shows how much I pay attention to things, huh lol
  4. 30 Nov '13 03:06
    It's not trap. 🙂
    4....Nbd7 is a good move played by many strong players.
    The fact there is a trick in there is coincidental.
    (also a few Black have won the piece and gone onto lose - see below.)

    To make a genuine trap out the same setting try 4...Bd6.
    This is my opening trap and it's a genuine bad move hoping for a blunder.
    The RHP player Grumms PM'd me to say he had caught someone with 4...Bd6
    but, alas, went onto lose.

  5. 30 Nov '13 03:56
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    It's not trap. 🙂
    4....Nbd7 is a good move played by many strong players.
    The fact there is a trick in there is coincidental.
    (also a few Black have won the piece and gone onto lose - see below.)

    To make a genuine trap out the same setting try 4...Bd6.
    This is my opening trap and it's a genuine bad move hoping for a blunder.
    The RHP player Grumm ...[text shortened]... ay around. He has fallen into the trap.} 6... Nxd5 7. Bxd8 Bb4+ {Black has won his piece.}[/pgn]
    How is it not a trap? Just curious, it looks like a trap to me. 4...Bd6 looks like a swindle.
  6. 30 Nov '13 04:44 / 1 edit
    Hi Mister Chess.

    Swindle/Trap. It can be the same but IMO they differ.

    I'll cut/paste the relevant bit that I posted in the thread Fat Lady gave.

    The Oxford Companion to Chess has this to say about a trap.

    They state there is no precise definition of a trap adding that
    many masters would not class an incidental trap as a trap.
    (4...Nbd7 in the above game is an incidental trap)

    They call a move that I call a genuine trap (a risky bad move that works) a swindle.

    A swindle to me is when you are lost and you set a trap that your opponent
    falls into and you spin the game around.
    Swindles differ from a genuine trap because when swindling the damage
    has already been done. You are trying to get back into the game.
    A genuine trap is the damage that can give you a lost game.

    Indeed when the The Oxford Companion comes around to defining 'Swindle'
    it agress with me.

    "A trap by means of which a player who has a lost position avoids defeat."
    (The Companion appears to be arguing with itself.)

    -------------------------

    In the so called Elephant Trap mentioned above Black is not in a lost position
    nor is he setting a trap. He is developing a piece.
    The plausible trap just happens to there, it is incidental.

    4...Bd6 is a pure trap.
    It is knowingly playing a bad move to set a trap when you have no need to.
    It is played to trap an unsuspecting opponent into making a bad move.
    If the player plays correctly against this move he will win a sound centre pawn.

    A swindle/cheapo.
    Is something you try when you are lost and you need to take desperate steps.
  7. 30 Nov '13 13:48
    The trap is not Nd7. The trap is greed. It is the same as taking the h7 pawn with a bishop. g6 is then a trap forvthe greedy (unless you are carlsen apparently)
  8. 30 Nov '13 14:34
    Correct Habeascorp.

    Greed. But in the case the greed is simply miscalculation, encouraged
    by material gain and an advantage in a game fo chess.

    All seasoned players would not even look at trying to nick the d-pawn after 4...Nd7.
    They know the trick is there.

    But 4...Bd6. 'Never seen that before...is it a mistake?....."

    So you have them thinking in the opening instead of remembering.
    Once you have a human thinking for themselves in any situation then anything can happen.

    Add that to the fact that trap involves the Bishop moving twice (from d6 and
    again to b4+ to spring the trap), double piece and pawn moves are often missed.
    You have makings of a very plausible trap.

    Try it for a laugh in blitz. It has two out two victims that I know of.
    (though one lost) and there is a third but the player here....


    ....never played 4...Bd6 intending a trap because here he did not play 6...Nxd5. (doh!)

    "Once you have a human thinking for themselves in any situation then anything can happen."
  9. 30 Nov '13 21:17
    I guess that makes sense. Whomever made all the chess words that have other than their natural meaning needs to go choke on a dictionary though.
  10. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    02 Dec '13 01:31
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Mister Chess.

    Swindle/Trap. It can be the same but IMO they differ.

    I'll cut/paste the relevant bit that I posted in the thread Fat Lady gave.

    [b]The Oxford Companion to Chess
    has this to say about a trap.

    They state there is no precise definition of a trap adding that
    many masters would not class an incidental trap as a trap. ...[text shortened]...
    A swindle/cheapo.
    Is something you try when you are lost and you need to take desperate steps.[/b]
    Hi greenpawn, I tend to agree that for it to be a trap there should be some form of refutation, even if the concession is just time or a misplaced piece. I think "pitfall" is a good word for incidental traps that come about after normal moves. The problem is that Horowitz and Reinfeld wrote a book called Chess Traps, Pitfalls, and Swindles where they used "trap" to mean an incidental trap and "pitfall" to mean a trap that was played for, although they don't seem to require it to involve a concession if the other player doesn't fall for it.
  11. 04 Dec '13 12:11
    Your comment made me laugh. Reading on I realised that swindle may actually be a term used here, but thanks for the giggle.