The thread title says it all. Queenside was wrenched open, saw it coming, and didn't know what to do. Any ideas for improvements?
Game 3098795
don't put the knight on the queenside if you're not prepared to do something with it. otherwise it'll be just kicked back losing precious tempos.
sometimes it's excellent though, like in:
Kavalek, Lubomir (2590) - Kasparov, Gary (2640)
1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.h3 e5 7.d5 Na6 8.Be3 Nh5 9.Nh2 Qe8 10.Be2 Nf4 11.Bf3 f5 12.h4 Qe7 13.g3 Nb4 14.Qb3 Nfd3+ 15.Ke2 f4 16.Bd2 fxg3 17.fxg3 Rxf3 18.Nxf3 Bg4 19.Raf1 Rf8 20.Nd1 Qf7 21.Be3 Bxf3+ 22.Kd2 Qd7 23.Rhg1 Qh3 24.a3 Bxe4 25.Rxf8+ Bxf8 26.axb4 Qh2+ 27.Kc3 Nc1 0-1
It's not actually the queenside that you should be worried about. It was your failure to play actively on the kingside that was your downfall. The poor knight on f7 was badly over worked. You could have tried Qf8, allowing you to put a knight on e5 and counter attack from there .. remember as black you have a few tempo up your sleeve because unlike white your king often isn't in immediate danger
Often your queenside can completely collapse as you win through on the kingside.
Here is an example of a blitz game I play showing this idea (sorry i think i've posted it twice before but its all i have on hand)
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8.
d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Ne8 10. Nf3 f5 11. exf5 Nxf5 12. Qb3 Nf6 13. Bd3 Re8 14. Bg5
h6 15. Bxf6 Qxf6 16. Rae1 g5 17. c5 g4 18. Nd2 Qh4 19. Nb5 e4 20. Nxc7 Be5
21. g3 Nxg3 22. fxg3 Bxg3 23. Re2 Be5 24. Bb5 g3 25. Bxe8 Bh3 26. Nxa8
gxh2+ 27. Kh1 e3 28. Qxb7 Bxf1 29. Qf7+ Kh8 30. Nxf1 Qe4+ 31. Rg2 Qxg2+ 32.
Kxg2 e2 33. Bb5 e1=Q 34. Qxa7 Qe4+ 35. Kf2 h1=N+ 36. Kg1 Qg4+ 37. Kxh1 Qh3+
38. Kg1 Bd4+ 39. Ne3 Bxe3
Originally posted by YugaJesus wept.
The thread title says it all. Queenside was wrenched open, saw it coming, and didn't know what to do. Any ideas for improvements?
Game 3098795
skeeter
9...e5 is fine. It has been played, but in relatively few games. I recall looking at a Spassky game in this line; Spassky was black. Spassky had a reputation for being hopeless in the KID (as I recall from "Bobby Fischer Goes To War", he had relatively poor opening knowledge for a player of his caliber, and he lost the game in which he played the line I aimed for (there were a spattering of results in which Black had success). I had stopped looking at the database after 13...Nh6. (I don’t use an openings database anymore.)
The position after 16...Nb7 was the type of position I had aimed for. My play up to this point was fine.
I have to re-evaluate 17…Rb8 because it seems pointless as I considered 18. bxc5 bxc5, when bxc5 is not even best for white, and perhaps Nxc5 is the proper response to 18.bxc5 anyway although 18…bxc5 may be quite fine, but Black would have to play quite accurately.
Kw offered a draw after move 22, and my position still appears to be quite playable, although white has initiative. Yet some of Black’s moves in the follow-up lines may be forced. Qd8-f6 was necessary, if not forced, and definitely best. Anything else just seems too slow.
I have just done some postmortem analysis of this game with Fritz8, so I will post what I have so far. Fritz8 is quite poor at evaluating such positions as these (for some reason, it really had trouble finding best moves for the white side), so I used line pruning extensively in this analysis, and deleted most of the pruned lines. Yet certainly I need to refine the analysis below.
I missed the lines involving the penetration of the queen into my position, and I never managed to actualize Kingside counterplay. I thought that I would need all forces to create Kingside counterplay, hence the Knight maneuver, but the counterplay never materialized. Yes, keeping the N on b7 would likely slow an a5 break. In any case, the knight maneuver took too much time and certainly was not objectively best.
The critical points for improvement are my plans regarding moves 17 and 23. Of course I could have made the same improvements recommended on move 17 on all moves in between 17 and 23, but I already was following an inferior plan, although perhaps not losing, many of my moves would have been forced.
[Event "July 06 Mini Series 3/7 1800+"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2007.01.30"]
[Round "2"]
[White "kwgoodwin"]
[Black "Yuga"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E66"]
[Annotator "Yuga"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[EventDate "2007.??.??"]
1. c4 (1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. h3 (6. Be2 e5 7.
O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Ne8 10. Nf3 f5 11. exf5 Nxf5 12. Qb3 Nf6 13. Bd3 Re8
14. Bg5 h6 15. Bxf6 Qxf6 16. Rae1 g5 17. c5 g4 18. Nd2 Qh4 19. Nb5 e4 20. Nxc7
Be5 21. g3 Nxg3 22. fxg3 Bxg3 23. Re2 Be5 24. Bb5 g3 25. Bxe8 Bh3 26. Nxa8
gxh2+ 27. Kh1 e3 28. Qxb7 Bxf1 29. Qf7+ Kh8 30. Nxf1 Qe4+ 31. Rg2 Qxg2+ 32.
Kxg2 e2 33. Bb5 e1=Q 34. Qxa7 Qe4+ 35. Kf2 h1=N+ 36. Kg1 Qg4+ 37. Kxh1 Qh3+ 38.
Kg1 Bd4+ 39. Ne3 Bxe3# {Idioms Blitz Game}) 6... e5 7. d5 Na6 8. Be3 Nh5 9. Nh2
Qe8 10. Be2 Nf4 11. Bf3 (11. Bxf4 exf4 12. O-O Nc5 13. Qc2 f5 14. exf5 Bxf5)
11... f5 12. h4 Qe7 13. g3 Nb4 14. Qb3 (14. gxf4 fxe4 15. Nxe4 exf4 16. Bd2
Nd3+ 17. Kf1 Bh3+ 18. Kg1 Nxb2 19. Qb3 Nxc4 20. Rd1 Nxd2 21. Rxd2) 14... Nfd3+
15. Ke2 f4 16. Bd2 fxg3 17. fxg3 Rxf3 18. Nxf3 Bg4 19. Raf1 Rf8 20. Nd1 Qf7 21.
Be3 Bxf3+ 22. Kd2 Qd7 23. Rhg1 Qh3 24. a3 Bxe4 25. Rxf8+ Bxf8 26. axb4 Qh2+ 27.
Kc3 Nc1 {Kavalek-Kasparov}) 1... Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. Nf3 d6
6. O-O c5 7. d4 Nc6 8. d5 Na5 9. Nd2 e5 10. e4 Ng4 11. Qe2 f5 12. exf5 gxf5 13.
h3 Nh6 14. b3 Bd7 15. a3 b6 16. b4 Nb7 17. Rb1 Rb8 (17... Nf7 18. Bb2 (18. bxc5
$2) (18. Qh5 e4 19. Ne2 Ne5 20. Nf4 Qe8 21. Bb2 Qxh5 22. Nxh5 Bh6 23. f4 Be8)
18... Qg5 19. Kh2 Rae8 20. b5 e4) 18. b5 (18. bxc5 bxc5 19. Nb5 a6 20. Na7 Qc7
(20... Na5 21. Nc6 Nxc6 22. dxc6 Be6 23. Bd5 Qf6) 21. Nc6 Rbe8 22. Qh5 Rf6 23.
Nf3 e4 24. Nh4 Nf7 25. Bb2 Rh6 26. Qe2 Bxb2 27. Qxb2 Na5) (18. Kh2 Qf6 19. Nb5)
18... Qc8 (18... Qe8 19. Re1 Qg6 20. Bb2 Nf7 21. Kh2 e4 22. f4 exf3 23. Nxf3
Ne5) 19. Bb2 Nd8 20. a4 Ndf7 21. Qh5 e4 22. Ne2 Bxb2 23. Rxb2 Kh8 (23... Qd8
24. Nf4 (24. Rb3 Qf6 25. Nf4 Ne5 26. Qe2 Nhf7 27. a5 Ng6 28. axb6 axb6 29. f3
Nxf4 30. gxf4) 24... Qf6 25. Ra2 (25. Rb3 Ne5 26. Qe2 Nhf7 27. a5 bxa5 28. Ra3
a6 29. bxa6 a4 30. Ne6 Bxe6 31. dxe6 Qxe6 32. Rxa4) 25... a5 26. bxa6 Ra8 27.
Rb1 Rxa6 28. Rab2 Bxa4 29. Rxb6 Rxb6 30. Rxb6 Ra8 31. Qe2 Bd7 32. Kh2 Qd8 33.
Rb2 Qf6 (33... Ne5 34. f3 exf3 35. Nxf3 Nhf7 36. Ne6 Qf6 37. Nxe5 Nxe5 38. Rb6)
34. Rb7 Ne5 35. f3 exf3 36. Nxf3 Nhf7 37. Nh5 Qg6 38. Nxe5 Nxe5 39. Rxd7 Nxd7
40. Qe6+ Qf7 41. Qxd7 Qxd7 42. Nf6+ Kf7 43. Nxd7 h5 44. h4 (44. Nb6 Ra6) 44...
Rd8 45. Nb6 Rb8 46. Na4 Rb3 47. Bf1 Kf6 48. Kg2 Ra3 49. Nb6 Ke7 50. Be2 Ra2 51.
Kf1 Ra6 52. Nc8+ Kd7 53. Nxd6 Kxd6 54. Bxh5) 24. Nf4 Rg8 25. Ra1 Rg5 26. Qh4
Ng8 (26... Qd8 27. Rba2 Qe7 28. a5 Rbg8 29. axb6 axb6) (26... Qe8 27. Ra3 Qe5
28. Rba2 Rbg8 29. a5 Bc8 30. Kh1 R5g7 31. axb6 axb6 32. Ra8) 27. a5 Nf6 28.
Rba2 Qg8 29. Ra3 Ne5 30. axb6 axb6 31. Ra7 Rf8 32. R1a3 Be8 33. Rb7 Nfd7 34.
Ne6 Rh5 35. Qd8 Rf6 36. Ra8 Bf7 37. f4 exf3 38. Nxf3 {Jesus wept.} 1-0
Originally posted by idiomsCorrect. Although wormwood was also correct in saying that the knight should have stayed on the queenside at that particular point of the game.
It's not actually the queenside that you should be worried about. It was your failure to play actively on the kingside that was your downfall. Often your queenside can completely collapse as you win through on the kingside.
I know that I have posted this game a few times, but it demonstrates that Black's queenside may collapse while Black wins through the Kside.
Ftacnik-Cvitan
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1046655
And here is another double-edged KID. Yet Black should lose in this particular game.:
Larsen-Tal 0-1
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1046655
Same line, but Black plays the drawing line.
Averkin-Tal 1/2-1/2
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1139902
Extremely sharp:
Game 759477
This game = definitely worth analysis. Korchnoi-Kasparov
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070534
And so this is also interesting.
Game 2013931
Yet KID games don't have to be so double edged, as in the the ...Nb8-d7 and ...Nb8-a6 vars. Those really don't require much theory, but of course definitely an understanding of ideas.
Kasparov-Tebb (I think everybody here has seen this game by now. All credit to Tebb, but Kasparov did play rather poorly.)
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1311655
Quirine is one of the top KID players on this site on both sides. seadevil's KID games are worth looking at as well.
Game 1615298
Originally posted by vipiuI'd much rather play on and lose than draw and wonder about what could have been regardless if my position is worse or even losing. I don't understand why some people at the non-professional level are willing to agree to early draws. Tournament wins and rating have no intrinsic value.
why did you decline the draw offer?
I don't care about my rating; I don't have problems getting opponents that are strong enough (or too strong) for me. However, I do care about playing fun and quality chess.
When one is old, people won't wonder about how many tournament wins, or what rating one had. Much in the same way I hope my peers would stop asking and whining about grades when they get older. Yet I do not think that what people think about me matters much; it's foolish to be paranoid enough to let other's perceptions to inhibit one's life.
Originally posted by jaenischfanToo much theory in the Nimzo Indian for me to consider studying it immediately. I do play the QID sometimes; it's super solid and easy to play. But the KID I play the most, and I think I can excel with it with more study.
Play the Nimzo Indian and Queen's Indian instead, then your queenside will not get ripped apart🙂
in your choice of opening i don't like the nc6 being forced to na5-variation, i think moro plays it at times, but i would be suffering
The knight could have fulfilled a useful purpose on b7 by deterring an a pawn advance. Unfortunately it seems I wasted too many tempi (despite the closed position) by moving the knight critical to defense of the queenside.
The KID (and the QID) has been played much more recently at the highest level.