Openings - Engine vs book

Originally posted by Tatarana Crocodilo
Which ones are you referring to?

This one until the number of games in the line get small: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer

This one after:
http://www.chesslive.de/

There are others, but these are the ones I usually rely on.

Originally posted by no1marauder
This one until the number of games in the line get small: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer

This one after:
http://www.chesslive.de/

There are others, but these are the ones I usually rely on.s

That's the ones I'm aware of. I was hoping you could point me to another.

It's sad the www.chessgames.com doesn't allow infinite exploration down the opening line anymore. 😛

Originally posted by Tatarana Crocodilo
That's the ones I'm aware of. I was hoping you could point me to another.

It's sad the www.chessgames.com doesn't allow infinite exploration down the opening line anymore. 😛

They do if you join for $25 a year (I did).

There's this one: http://www.chesslab.com/PositionSearch.html

There are some games of lower quality there though and the position stats need to be taken with a grain of salt for the reasons DragonFire gives.

Originally posted by Tatarana Crocodilo
That's the ones I'm aware of. I was hoping you could point me to another.

It's sad the www.chessgames.com doesn't allow infinite exploration down the opening line anymore. 😛

There's also Shredder's online database which does go down to 1 game variations: http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/opening-database.html

Originally posted by no1marauder
I never rely on the Fritz opening database; the online ones are obviously superior.

Here's an amusing example where Black makes his first 11 moves out of Fritz's database and leaves himself with a hopelessly lost game.

1 e4 e5
2 Nf3 d6
3 d4 f5?!
4 Nc3 fxe4
5 Nxe4 d5
6 Nxe5 dxe4?
7 Qh5+ g6
8 Nxg6 Nf6
9 Qe5+ Be7
10 Nxh8 Nc6
11 Bb5 Qd5

and resigns a few moves later.

Just because a move is in a database doesn't mean it isn't a bad one.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Here's an amusing example where Black makes his first 11 moves out of Fritz's database and leaves himself with a hopelessly lost game.

1 e4 e5
2 Nf3 d6
3 d4 f5?!
4 Nc3 fxe4
5 Nxe4 d5
6 Nxe5 dxe4?
7 Qh5+ g6
8 Nxg6 Nf6
9 Qe5+ Be7
10 Nxh8 Nc6
11 Bb5 Qd5

and resigns a few moves later.

Just because a move is in a database doesn't mean it isn't a bad one.

Fritz 11 at least marks 2...d6?, 3...f5?, 9...Be7? (9...Kf7). There are "losing lines" included in Fritz also, which is good. There are some inaccuracies, however.

And, of course, many may not agree that 2...d6 deserves a '?'. 🙂

edit: or do you mean actual games in the game database? Chessbase's larger (at least "Big" and "Mega", and the one included in newer Fritz boxes) include an amount of low-quality (beginner) games.

Originally posted by Ikuturso
Fritz 11 at least marks 2...d6?, 3...f5?, 9...Be7? (9...Kf7). There are "losing lines" included in Fritz also, which is good. There are some inaccuracies, however.

And, of course, many may not agree that 2...d6 deserves a '?'. 🙂

The "?" doesn't mean that it's a losing line. If you go by that, everything in response to 1. e4 other than 1. ...e5 and 1. ...c5 loses. This is clearly not true. The "?" simply indicates a line that doesn't suits Fritz's strengths according to the authors. Green lines may not even be that good, but Fritz may play them very well. Rybka has its own green lines and lines with "?" for Fritz may be the main lines for it. For example, 1. ...c6 and 1. ....e6 are green lines against e4 for Rybka. Engine books are not that different from your own repertoire. They're based on the strengths (preferences) of the engine. They don't indicate any objective truth.

As for engines themselves, they're still very unreliable in the openings. However, they're useful if guided by a strong player who knows what's important.

Originally posted by exigentsky
The "?" doesn't mean that it's a losing line. If you go by that, everything in response to 1. e4 other than 1. ...e5 and 1. ...c5 loses. This is clearly not true. The "?" simply indicates a line that doesn't suits Fritz's strengths according to the authors. Green lines may not even be that good, but Fritz may play them very well. Rybka has its own green l However, they're useful if guided by a strong player who knows what's important.

I didn't mean Fritz's '?' is a losing line, but that Fritz includes losing lines also. (Point being to no1marauder that not all lines in Fritz are meant to be played, so to speak.)

Originally posted by Ikuturso
Fritz 11 at least marks 2...d6?, 3...f5?, 9...Be7? (9...Kf7). There are "losing lines" included in Fritz also, which is good. There are some inaccuracies, however.

And, of course, many may not agree that 2...d6 deserves a '?'. 🙂

edit: or do you mean actual games in the game database? Chessbase's larger (at least "Big" and "Mega", and the one included in newer Fritz boxes) include an amount of low-quality (beginner) games.

Well, I don't agree with the question marks for moves 2 and 3 - the opening is called the Philidor Countergambit and is played even by masters. By move 9, the game is lost in this line; I don't think Kf7 makes much of a difference.

Originally posted by no1marauder
By move 9, the game is lost in this line; I don't think Kf7 makes much of a difference.

But it does! It's the correct continuation. White ends up with rook and a pawn or two for two minor pieces with a fun position, but not a clearly won one by any means.

Originally posted by Ikuturso
But it does! It's the correct continuation. White ends up with rook and a pawn or two for two minor pieces with a fun position, but not a clearly won one by any means.

Please; Black's King is exposed and he's down material. Perhaps 9 ...... Kf7 is a marginally better move but White should still win without too much trouble.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Please; Black's King is exposed and he's down material. Perhaps 9 ...... Kf7 is a marginally better move but White should still win without too much trouble.

No no, it's all theory still. If you can get your hands on James West: "The Dynamic Philidor Counter-Gambit" you should check it out. It's a bit dated (1996?) but this particular line hasn't been refuted. Or you can try a few games with it to see how it works out.

A big, free online database that is relatively obscure:

365chess.com

You have to sign in to go beyond a certain point, but registering is easy and free.

Not to be confused with chess365.com which is a Chinese (?) language site.