PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 19

paulbuchmanfromfics View Profile

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11 Dec '08 19:54

~~robbie carrobie~~
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12 Dec '08 22:011 edit
...Nf7 and the knight would be as well as staying in the pub with black beetle and ordering a Pimms number one with crushed ice and lemonade!

therefore if we must facilitate the retreat of our knight it is best placed, temporarily on e8, it simply therefore makes sense to move the rook and give it more scope. Rb8+ temporarily gains time for the retreat, increases the scope of the rook and facilitates the retreat of the knight, after which, depending on whites intentions we may be able to play in the center and relocate our knight.

...Rb8+
streetfighter
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12 Dec '08 22:17
You might well be right mazattack. In the line you give I don't think black is worse, but it's extremely unclear.

Perhaps it's just my own preference for playing murky positions with lots of imbalances and tactics?! It's not easy to provide any clarity for players of a 'cleaner' style.

Anyway, we should keep looking - although the white king getting stuck in the centre in these lines gives me confidence that we are doing fine : )
mazattack
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12 Dec '08 23:05
Anyhow, i think i've come to my decision. Rb8 it is, we can then pick up our discussions once we know which way he moves his king.

Seems the consensus is clearly, already, on Rb8+

Should we play?
ResigningSoon
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13 Dec '08 04:46
I think Nh7 and Rb8+ are both OK for black.

Black has play on b-file, c-file, long diagonal, both bishops, and plenty chances to harass white king.

White has material, but just doesn't have time to attack.

Black will be calling the shots for the rest of the game I think, and practically I think white has more opportunities to lose than we do.

I'll vote Rb8+, but not too particular either way.
fianchettochess
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13 Dec '08 08:01
19...Rb8+
ResigningSoon
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13 Dec '08 09:281 edit
Originally posted by !~TONY~!
On ...h7 it's out of play. The point is that you'd rather have your Knight on e8 such that after ...d5, it goes to d6, and is about as well placed as it can get. For instance, here is the best line in my opinion (after a lot of work by me):

19...Rb8+ 20. Ka1 Ne8 21. Rb1 Rc8! 22. Rb4 d5! 23. exd5 Nd6 with great play. Of course Black doesn't trade rooks, ...[text shortened]... y by 24...Nb5, exploiting the nasty pin, and assuring Black a great game!

[b]19...Rb8+[/b]
oh, and just to be fair here's a possible line with Nh7 to those who might doubt it as sound:

19...Nh7 20.Qd3 Rb8+ 21.Nb3 Nh8 22.Bd4 Bxd4 (e5 is coming, don't worry) 23.Qxd4 Rb4 24.Qd2 Rxc4 ...I dunno, I can't really find an active plan for white.

Still I prefer the Rb8+, Ne8, d5 plan, but keep in mind we will probably have a queen trade after:

19...Rb8+ 20. Ka1 Ne8 21. Rb1 Rc8! 22. Rb4 d5! 23. exd5 Nd6 24.c5 or 19...Rb8+ 20. Ka1 Ne8 21. Rb1 Rc8! 22. Rb3 d5! 23. exd5 Nd6 24.Bf4

Not that a queen trade is bad for us, but if anyone is looking for a quick mate...probably not going to happen.

I think either position is uncomfortable for white.
!~TONY~!
1...c5!
Your Kingside
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13 Dec '08 16:58
Originally posted by ResigningSoon
oh, and just to be fair here's a possible line with Nh7 to those who might doubt it as sound:

19...Nh7 20.Qd3 Rb8+ 21.Nb3 Nh8 22.Bd4 Bxd4 (e5 is coming, don't worry) 23.Qxd4 Rb4 24.Qd2 Rxc4 ...I dunno, I can't really find an active plan for white.

Still I prefer the Rb8+, Ne8, d5 plan, but keep in mind we will probably have a queen trade after:
...[text shortened]... k mate...probably not going to happen.

I think either position is uncomfortable for white.
Why do we have a queen trade after 24. c5 Nb5 ?
clandarkfire
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13 Dec '08 18:02
I vote Nh7
streetfighter
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13 Dec '08 18:10
Originally posted by clandarkfire
I vote Nh7
What are we doing after something like 20.Qd3?

I like the idea of ...Nh7, ...Rb8+ (or c8), ...Nf8-e6, but I can't make it work quickly enough. It seems to give white an extra tempo to construct a defence with moves like Qd3 & c3.

We can win the c4-pawn, but it will be 'queen first' and we don't want a queen trade. Any suggestions?
heinzkat
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13 Dec '08 18:221 edit
Originally posted by streetfighter
We can win the c4-pawn, but it will be 'queen first' and we don't want a queen trade. Any suggestions?
In a fantasy variation we can permit ourselves Bd7-b5xc4. (but I would not count on it🙂)

What I do not like about Rb8+, is that it gives White a concrete "handle" towards a harmonious way of continuing the developments while Black "wastes" two moves on Rf8-c8. Also, I believe the Knight would be better from e6 than d6. But it is all too abstract and not concrete, that it perhaps really relies on "matter of taste". (my vote is still on 19. ... Nh7)
zico10
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13 Dec '08 18:45
19...Rb8+
sonhouse
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slatington, pa, usa
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13 Dec '08 19:041 edit
R-B8+ followed by N-E8 to get the knight over to the other side to aid in attack of king, but it looks like the king ends up on the other side of the board. Hope you did you calc's right when you allowed the rook exchange.
It just looks to me like a wasted effort due to the kings easy escape.
clandarkfire
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13 Dec '08 19:33
Originally posted by streetfighter
What are we doing after something like 20.Qd3?

I like the idea of ...Nh7, ...Rb8+ (or c8), ...Nf8-e6, but I can't make it work quickly enough. It seems to give white an extra tempo to construct a defence with moves like Qd3 & c3.

We can win the c4-pawn, but it will be 'queen first' and we don't want a queen trade. Any suggestions?
After 19............Nh7
20.Qd3.. Rb8+
21.Nb3...Be6, I think white has an advantage, but both sides still have a chance. White already has an advantage, and as far as I can see, this line lets him use it the least.
clandarkfire
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13 Dec '08 19:34
Originally posted by streetfighter
What are we doing after something like 20.Qd3?

I like the idea of ...Nh7, ...Rb8+ (or c8), ...Nf8-e6, but I can't make it work quickly enough. It seems to give white an extra tempo to construct a defence with moves like Qd3 & c3.

We can win the c4-pawn, but it will be 'queen first' and we don't want a queen trade. Any suggestions?
ResigningSoon
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14 Dec '08 03:383 edits
Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Why do we have a queen trade after 24. c5 Nb5 ?
25.Qc4 Qxc5
or
25.Nxb5 Bxc3+
or
25.Qc4 Na3 avoids queen trade for now

but most lines seem to have a queen trade...

well, i figured we would eventually take c5 with our queen...

ps: Nb5 really is a brilliant move, it seems to equalize on the spot

after another look...I dont think white should or will play 21.Rb4

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PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 19