Queen Exchanging

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what about the above game, Petrosian lost his 'castling rights', and it made not the slightest bit of difference! yes he had to expend an extra tempo to get his king to safety, but it was hardly decisive, was it?

Decisive? No; but that's not the question. The question is whether it's better than neutral. If it's better than neutral; i.e., if it gives you a better position than doing something else, then it's worth it.

Originally posted by sh76
Decisive? No; but that's not the question. The question is whether it's better than neutral. If it's better than neutral; i.e., if it gives you a better position than doing something else, then it's worth it.

Agreed. Even in the game above, white had the iniciative and developed his pieces. This is enough for me to think that it's better than neutral. I'm actually playing a game when it happened and I had no doubt on taking the queen, and right now I'm slightly winning.

But no comments on this particular game, please.

I like this exchange, mostly because I found out that many players are queen addicted, and find very unconfortable to play without the powerful piece on the board.

It's not a theoritical opinion, but a practical one.

Another opening where queens come off early - the Old Indian:



As Black I have a 90% winning record with this opening after nearly 100 blitz games. In the games on the 365chess.com database starting with these moves, Black has a 63% record! (55% wins and 18% draws).

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Well, this is not more than a rule of thumb. Every situation must be considered for itself. There are never any ultimate rules.

Look at the game starting with 1. d4 d6 2. e4 e5 3. dxe5 dxe5 4. Qxd8+ Kxd8 (Pirc's opening, I think, perhaps I'm wrong)

Then we have the position
[fen]rnbk1bnr/ppp2ppp/8/4p3/4P3/8/PPP2PPP/RNB1KBNR[/fen]

We have a symm ...[text shortened]... are won by white, only 29% by black.

And I don't think we are near an endgame yet, are we?

Go post Fabian in an interesting thread with a beautiful game
by Petrosiian that is worth playing over again to study.

This postion.



I had this three times on the trot v an IM in blitz skittles.
I lost all three.

Game one I attacked like a rabid rat - simple win.

Game two played it a bit more cagey - standard good play v klutz(me) win.

Game Three - (now learning) played it like it should be played as he
was doing v me. sniffing and poking for weakness's.

Lost but it was not the opening - went down on time in a level postion.

Interersting stats on this position - only 29% wins by Black.

Go deeper - what were the grades.
Take out the stats if the White player was higher graded - what is
the score then?

Good position to play v a box on a low level.

PS It is the Pirc - I reached it by 1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5 etc...

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Surely white has an advantage, small but still there?

ummm, i don't mean to be rude or anything, but why has white got a small advantage? if its by virtue of having lost the right to castle, then i do not think that we can rightly call it an advantage, this is misleading, for it is yet to be demonstrated that whites 'advantage', is real! there ar will post them for your perusal and consideration later, right now i gotta go to work!🙂

In certain positions, of course there are an advantage to give up the right of castling, if, and I mean if, the alternative is better. We cannot draw any conclusion out of certain games. I say statistically it is better to hold on the castling rights if nothing better turns up.

Like the question "Is a queen better than a pawn?" the usual answer is "Yes", but surly in some positions there are a mate threat that you gladly give up the queen to get a lousy pawn and mate? Like 37. fxg7#. But normally a queen is worth more than a pawn.

Therefore I say, as a rule of thumb, a loss of castling rights are usually bad. And I can statistically prove it.

When I am instructor for kids and beginners, I often get the question "Is it better to ... than ...?" And I usually answer: "It depends on the situation, but as a rule of thumb I would say ..."

Originally posted by FabianFnas
In certain positions, of course there are an advantage to give up the right of castling, if, and I mean if, the alternative is better. We cannot draw any conclusion out of certain games. I say statistically it is better to hold on the castling rights if nothing better turns up.

Like the question "Is a queen better than a pawn?" the usual answer is "Yes I usually answer: "It depends on the situation, but as a rule of thumb I would say ..."

Good morning my illustrious friend, how are things in Sweden? if ever you visit Norrkoping, remember me to a young lady, a flutist, she once was a true love of mine, weep weep! :'(

what can we say with regard to this idea of queen exchange? for to be sure there seems to this pathetic patzer a contradiction, for you are saying that statistically it is better for white, while on the other hand the statistics that Fat Lady have posted say quite the opposite. even his own blitz games, 90% success rate is phenomenal by anyone's standards, and 365chess.com would also seem to substantiate these statistics.

this has really got me wondering, for what can we say? if as you state that the exchange of queens leads to a disadvantage, then surely it must be bad, however, if there is no conclusive reason not to exchange queens other than its considered on the basis of statistics not to be good, then it is fear that is making us avoid the exchange, something which belongs in the realms of psychology, not on the chess board, for no chess player should ever be motivated by fear.

anyhow this really needs further exploration, for there are many variations where white actively seeks to avoid an exchange of queens, for example in the KIA against the french defense, 1.e4 e6, 2.d3 d5, 3.Nd2 is played to avoid the exchange of queens, however, there are also some instances where white actively encourages the exchange of queens, but sees no advantage, for example the exchange variation of the KID for white, although admittedly black has not given up the right to castle



1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9. Bg5

I would really like to see some games where black has been forced to give up the right to castle, perhaps be a piece sacrifice and been made to suffer. although it would seem to me that these are more likely to occur after a 1.e4 opening, rather than a 1.d4 opening when white goes all out for the f7 square, although i am perfectly willing to be proven wrong - regards robbie.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Good morning my illustrious friend, how are things in Sweden? if ever you visit Norrkoping, remember me to a young lady, a flutist, she once was a true love of mine, weep weep! :'(

what can we say with regard to this idea of queen exchange? for to be sure there seems to this pathetic patzer a contradiction, for you are saying that statistically ll out for the f7 square, although i am perfectly willing to be proven wrong - regards robbie.

Things are really good in Sweden right now. We have a terrific weather, and the forecast for the week-end seems very promising!
Sorry, I don't know the Norrköping friend of yours with a flute, but if I see any beautiful Norrköpingska I say hallo from you!

Moreover statistics behind exchangeing queens, we have personal styles. Some want to have an ending rather quickly, some others aim for a draw, some have his queen as his pet piece, yet others are afraid of his opponents big lady.

And furthermore, chess is a game about psycology. If I know how much my opponent loves his queen, then I seek exchange. If I sense he wants a quick draw, then I avoid exchange... And so forth.

There are no true rules (more than them of FIDE, of cours). Try out positions. Go by your guts. Learn from mistakes. And you will be better!

Quote from Fabian:

"Try out positions. Go by your guts. Learn from mistakes. And you will be better!"

It's amazing how much good advice can be given in just one sentence.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Quote from Fabian:

"Try out positions. Go by your guts. Learn from mistakes. And you will be better!"

It's amazing how much good advice can be given in just one sentence.

True? No ironi? Sure? 😏