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Game 5116415 Not in 45 years of playing have I had a position like this in one of my games, I would have thought the queen could easily win, but after consulting 2 extremely strong players, the general concensus was that even if there is a win with correct play it would probably take more than 50 moves, which would still make it a draw. The game itself was full of errors made at the 1600 level of course but if anyone likes different engame positons this one is worth looking at.
just looking at that game, i would say that black should be able to win quite easily and by playing the position, after the rook swap, i was able to mate a computer in 20 or so moves so even against a harder computer, i would still think that black should be able to mate
EDIT: also bearing in mind that i'm not that great of a player
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Originally posted by TyrannosauruschexNo I quite understand there are a lot of errors along the way, I didnt think it was a well played game at all, my point is that when we came to the final positon its a draw you would think the queen would walk away with this but it doesnt seem to be, if a computer found a win in 20 though, well, I guess there you have it
On Move 38 - I think Rh4 would have helped the efforts - you could have sacrificed for that black bishop which was really quite troublesome - then you still have the passed pawn to queen and should be able to go about getting a win.
I have no idea what the theory of Q vs BB is, but it seems to me the problem is you can't advance the black king if the bishops stay next to each other, just like in a basic KBB mate. and your queen alone can't mate. so as long as the white king stays with the bishops, neither of them can drop, the king just sidesteps the futile checks.
as far as I can see, the only chance of progress is to separate the king from the bishops. and given how difficult and multistaged process it's even against K+R, I wonder if it's even possible? a similar zugzwang which finally sepates the rook doesn't seem likely, as two pieces instead of one probably always have a safe tempo move?
did the engine really find a win? or did it just say -2.16 or something like that, giving the material difference without any clue of the position?
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Originally posted by wormwoodbanx99 posted its possible earlier in the thread, but now that I have reread his post I think I misunderstood what he was trying to say
I have no idea what the theory of Q vs BB is, but it seems to me the problem is you can't advance the black king if the bishops stay next to each other, just like in a basic KBB mate. and your queen alone can't mate. so as long as the white king stays with the bishops, neither of them can drop, the king just sidesteps the futile checks.
as far as I can s ...[text shortened]... 16 or something like that, giving the material difference without any clue of the position?
Originally posted by Bobla45well I don't have a tablebase, but I had fritz 9 on this
banx99 posted its possible earlier in the thread, but now that I have reread his post I think I misunderstood what he was trying to say
for 15-20 minutes (infinite analysis), and it claimed a mate in 80 or so. I have my doubts about even that, as it claimed earlier a mate in 60, but changed its mind later. it seems the pruning just misses too many moves up to that depth to give reliable results.
edit: shredder tablebase says that's a mate in 66, so apparently there is a way. although I wouldn't be surprised if it was practically impossible for a human.
anyway, I doubt the pawns make it any easier, they seem to offer white more places to hide rather than being a weakness.
just found this bit about the pawnless Q vs BB:
Queen versus two bishops: A queen generally has a theoretical win against two bishops, but many ordinary positions require up to seventy-one moves (a draw can be claimed after fifty moves under the rules of competition, see fifty move rule); and there is one drawing fortress position for the two bishops (Müller & Lamprecht 2001:339-41).
Originally posted by wormwoodWhat did they sing in M*A*S*H?
just found this bit about the pawnless Q vs BB:
Queen versus two bishops: A queen generally has a theoretical win against two bishops, but many ordinary positions require up to seventy-one moves (a draw can be claimed after fifty moves under the rules of competition, see fifty move rule); and there is one drawing fortress position for the two bishops (Müller & Lamprecht 2001:339-41).
"Suicide is pawnless"?
Originally posted by wormwoodTo capture one of the Bishops or to capture the King?
just found this bit about the pawnless Q vs BB:
many ordinary positions require up to seventy-one moves
I had never heard of the existence of a two Bishops fortress against a Queen. But apparently this is the so-called "Lolli position":
Q vs BB is generally winning, but it's pretty much impossible for humans to play this "correctly". In other words, tablebases will generally convert the winning side and draw the losing side.
Strangely enough, Q v NN is easier to defend. The target formation is the knights side by side and the King next to them TOWARDS the center.
In this game, I suspect that the queen is winning more easily because there is one pawn pair remaining. It is slow going though.
The queen loses some power (say, down to 7-8 pawns worth) when there are no supporting pawns/pieces left. For example, two minor pieces and two connected pawns will generally defeat a lone queen.
I always remember one famous game (must be the famous one posted above), where Qvs2B was a draw because the king just weaved back and forth using the bishops as shelter, and using them to keep the other king back.
I guess it's true. Either way due to the 50 move rule it's a draw it seems.
Maybe i was the one who misunderstood the whole question asked
what i was referring to was that the position IN THAT GAME where there were actually still 2 pawns on each side should've won for black (the player with the queen i think?) where the computer ended up having to sacrifices pieces to prevent promoted pawns
i had a bit of talk with my friend and we agree that unless one person stuffs up, it would probably be a draw