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  1. Subscriber Pariah325
    Knife Wielder
    08 Aug '10 15:50
    In another recent thread on here, advice is given to someone about studying their losses. I do go over my losses, more now than previously in my chess-playing, but what exactly is the best way to go about that? I'll usually drop games into Fritz, and see what it says along with my own looking around, finding the spot where the tides turned, etc, but I'm not sure I'm getting the most out of going back over my games, and if I'm going to spend the time doing it, I'd like to get a lot out of it.

    Thanks in advance
    P
  2. 08 Aug '10 16:05
    Post a loss (an OTB one would be good) but one from here is OK.

    Post one one where you are not too sure where it slipped.
    No analysis, no comments, just the moves, time & place and names.
    (no blitz and not a C.C. game from another site).
  3. Subscriber Pariah325
    Knife Wielder
    08 Aug '10 16:50 / 4 edits
    Couldn't get the PGN to post. Never tried that before. A recent loss I haven't looked at yet.

    Game 7377305
  4. 08 Aug '10 16:54 / 1 edit
    I've fixed it in case you could not get the PGN thing working.

    72 moves....🙁 Have you not a got a 10 mover.

    Not looked at it yet, let other guys look, but if it's cute endgame
    nonsense then we are both in trouble.

  5. Subscriber Pariah325
    Knife Wielder
    08 Aug '10 17:04 / 1 edit
    I could find a shorter one, I'm sure. It had a longer endgame that I don't really need to look at. It's the business with my past pawn I needed to look at. After about move 50, it was over. I gave away what I felt was a decent position. More than anything, i want to learn how to look at my losses so I can learn to analyze myself. I'll look for a shorter game...
  6. Subscriber Pariah325
    Knife Wielder
    08 Aug '10 17:09
    Here's a shorter game against the same opponent. I know kinda how I lost, but I'm not sure how I should have played different, or how to see what I should have done.

  7. Standard member Talisman
    Time traveller.
    08 Aug '10 17:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Pariah325
    In another recent thread on here, advice is given to someone about studying their losses. I do go over my losses, more now than previously in my chess-playing, but what exactly is the best way to go about that? I'll usually drop games into Fritz, and see what it says along with my own looking around, finding the spot where the tides turned, etc, but I'm going to spend the time doing it, I'd like to get a lot out of it.

    Thanks in advance
    P


    This is a recent training game i played against one of Shredder's easier championship levels. I lost quite badly but the game is very instructive and i learnt a lot from going over it thoroughly.
    When i'm playing a training game at home or a game on here i write down everything i'm thinking about before i move. Obviously this isn't possible during an OTB game, so there you have to try and find some way of recalling your thought processes immediately after the game. perhaps write them down straight away. Anyway, once i have my idea of relevant variations and positional features written down i make my move. Somtimes you will get put in your place straight away and realise that your ideas were completely wrong. You can see this happening right before your eyes with a computer training game. However deeper analysis after the fact is always beneficial. It helps you understand your faulty thinking, hopefully giving you a very important chess lesson. This is one i learnt

    I played 16..Ne4 very quickly beliveing 17.Nxe4 to be terrible due to the pawn fork 17.fxe4. This was my superficial shallow thinking. The computer did indeed play 17. Nxe4 which i then saw ( unfortunately after the move), or at least thought i saw lost me a pawn due to the loose N on c4. The pawn fork was merely a mirage. It didn't actually exist. I resigned myself to having to lose a pawn. I didn't like the idea of 17..fxe4 due to 18 Bxe4 dxe4 19 Qxc4. I saw the bad weak pawn i'd be left with on e4 and looked no further. Had i looked deeper i'd of seen that 17.Nxe4 is indeed a blunder and i should have recaptured 17..fxe4 18.Bxe4 and then the beautiful 18..e5 attacking bishop and discovering the attack on the undefended N on h3. I looked at other irrelevant variations i had cosidered in the game and ironed them all out after. Once this is done to the best of my ability i turn on my engine and see how accurate my post game analysis was. going over your games like this is as instructive a type of training as you can get. Probably better than studying any master game or paying 25 quid an hour for an on line lesson. I find it very beneficial.
  8. 08 Aug '10 17:41 / 2 edits
    4.d5 neglects development.
    An improvement would be 4.Bc4 in order to develop your pieces quickly.

    That is for the long 72 move game.
  9. 08 Aug '10 19:39
    Originally posted by Pariah325
    I do go over my losses
    It's interesting that there is such emphasis on losses. I prefer to analyse my mistakes, and these can be found in all my games. So I suggest you analyse all your games.
  10. 08 Aug '10 21:35
    Personally, I think the reason to analyse your games is to look for recurring patterns where you make a mistake, in order that you can become aware of your faults and have some idea where to focus your studies.

    It also helps you learn your opening repertoire as you constantly analyse games from similar set-ups.

    The only other reason is if you regularly play the same oppponent and you want to prepare something for them.

    So look for recurring mistakes and then find study material to help you eradicate those mistakes.
  11. 09 Aug '10 00:47 / 1 edit
    Hi Pariah.

    I was only really kdding about the 70+ moves.

    Dived to the end to see how it was lost.

    Spotted this right away it's one of the basic endgame patterns.

    Black to play



    He can play 61...RxR+ instead of 61...Rf7.

    61...RxR+ 62 KxR Kxh3



    Bl;ack wins as Kf3 or Kf5 then Kh4.

    The White g-pawn falls and because the King is infront of the pawn.
    Black can Queen it.

    It's one of the patterns with pawns worth knowing.

    If the BK was on h4 with white to move.



    Black losses after Kf4. Postions worth knowing and studying.

    Then this, this is the position I was looking for.
    (thank God it was easy to spot)

    White to play.



    You went for the transparent mate with 64.Re6.
    He played 64...Rf7+ and g-pawn fell and the Rook is cutting off the King.



    Now if there is any drawing tricks because it's a g-pawn then
    I'm not up to date on them.

    (that is a grovelling way of me saying I'm really flying low
    when talking about endings).

    You should have played 64.Rf5



    Black can make no progress now, this is a draw.
    64....Rg8 65.Rf6 Kh2 66.Rf5

    What do we look for when studying losses?

    Signposts that indicate room for improvement.

    Your Basic endgame knowledge is worse than mine!

    Two erros indicate that you need to take onboard elementry K + P endings
    and basic Rook endings about getting you King cut off.

    Frame this post - I'm giving endgame advice.

    Your tactical shot when you had big pawn on d7 was easy to spot.

    You to play.



    You played 44.Rb7 but the simple 44.Rc8 wins the Knight.

    Perhaps here you were too involved in trying find a way to queen the pawn
    you forgot to look at the simple things.

    Going to mention this position as well.

    White to play.



    You played 29.c5.

    I can see why you did not take the e6 pawn (Nc8 yes?) so why give
    him a chance to swap the e6 target.

    I'll also give you the nod in your favour that it brings your d3 Bishop
    into the game.

    But I hate middle game pawn moves unless there you are sure it's the absolute
    best move. (or you are setting a pawn sac trap).

    Can you find an excuse NOT to make this move.
    Doubling Rooks is always good. The Rook on c2 is doing nothing.

    28.Rcb2 and you hit the b7 pawn, a threat. More worries.
    And if chummy plays the undeveloping Bc8 then Nb5.



    Hello a7 Rook, Hello e6 pawn.

    Look for sensible moves that carry a threat.
    Look for at your pieces that are really doing nothing and make them
    earn their place on the chessboard.
    Look for ways of sticking in the knife and giving it a wee twist.

    Hope this helps.

    Hole in basic (and I mean basic) endgame.
    You need to beef up this area. get some K + P patterns stored
    and basic Rook stuff.
    My endgame play is minimal, it's get me by but I saw those
    quick enough. If you did not then you do need help. 😉

    Lacking the art of simple chess in a won position.
    Look at the easy one movers first.

    Threats, Play for threats.
    Get all the pieces working together and leave your pawns alone.
  12. 09 Aug '10 02:17
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Pariah.

    I was only really kdding about the 70+ moves.

    Dived to the end to see how it was lost.

    Spotted this right away it's one of the basic endgame patterns.

    Black to play

    [fen]8/8/8/6p1/4RrPk/4K2P/8/8 b - - 0 61[/fen]

    He can play 61...RxR+ instead of 61...Rf7.

    61...RxR+ 62 KxR Kxh3

    [fen]8/8/8/6p1/4K1P1/7k/8/8 w - - 0 63[/fen ...[text shortened]... ats, Play for threats.
    Get all the pieces working together and leave your pawns alone.
    Hi Greenpawn, I didn't read the entire post, but I did notice this position, and something seemed not quite right...



    White can still draw this!

    63.Kf3 Kh4,
    then
    64.Kf2!

    Now White just shuffles the king between any of the f1, f2, or f3 squares. As soon as Black captures the pawn on g4, White plays Kg2, and it's a textbook draw.
  13. 09 Aug '10 02:52 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Pariah325
    Here's a shorter game against the same opponent. I know kinda how I lost, but I'm not sure how I should have played different, or how to see what I should have done.

    [pgn][Event "Clan challenge"]
    [Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
    [Date "2010.04.24"]
    [EndDate "2010.07.04"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "canmann"]
    [Black "Pariah325"]
    [WhiteRating "1393"]
    [ 29. Ke3d4 Ne5d7 30. Rh1a1 Nd7b6 31. Ra1b1 Be8d7
    32. c5 1-0
    [/pgn]
    How to analyze your losses and come away with an idea of what you did
    wrong and what you can do next time so you don’t end up in similar
    situations? Well for me it helps to work backwards from a position where
    you felt like it all started going downhill.

    Here’s the position after 16.Bd5



    Already down a pawn you’re about to lose the exchange. So let’s back up
    a few moves and see what led up to this woeful position.

    The position after 13.Bxf6



    You have your choice to recapture with the pawn, knight or bishop. You
    chose 13...Bxf6 which immediately loses the d6 pawn. A blunder. Recapturing
    with the knight would have been better.

    After 14.Qxd6



    You’ve lost a pawn and now your unprotected bishop on a6 is under attack.
    You chose to defend it by 14...Nb8



    This leaves the c5 pawn en prise but white saw something better. Your rook
    is blocked in and there’s an open diagonal to attack it on. Which is how we
    end up back here



    From just these few moves we can find several things that need addressing
    to improve your game. So what exactly led you to this position?

    1. If you had played 13...Nxf6 you wouldn’t have lost the d6 pawn.
    So you need to improve your tactical abilities. Being able to more accurately
    judge your opponents’ possible responses to your moves will help a lot.
    Tactics training is the way to go here. Try something like chesstempo.com.

    2. The unprotected bishop on a6 was troublesome. Loose pieces caused you
    problems in both the games you posted. If that bishop had been protected
    you wouldn’t have moved your knight to b8 shutting in your rook. You’ll
    find yourself exposed to less tactical threats if you don’t leave your pieces
    unprotected.

    3. Now to the rook. Obviously shutting in your pieces is not to be advised
    but the real problem was the open diagonal that allowed your rook to be
    attacked. If you still had a pawn on b7 you would have been ok. In both
    games you made too many pawn moves weakening your position.

    So to recap

    Improve on tactics

    Don’t leave pieces unprotected

    No unnecessary pawn moves

    Hope that helps
  14. Standard member Thabtos
    I am become Death
    09 Aug '10 04:32
    Originally posted by Pariah325
    In another recent thread on here, advice is given to someone about studying their losses. I do go over my losses, more now than previously in my chess-playing, but what exactly is the best way to go about that? I'll usually drop games into Fritz, and see what it says along with my own looking around, finding the spot where the tides turned, etc, but I'm ...[text shortened]... going to spend the time doing it, I'd like to get a lot out of it.

    Thanks in advance
    P
    It appears that you've asked someone to teach you how to fish, and a bunch of whalers have responded by emptying their nets at your feet. There is lots of great advice on here, but I don't think team RhP is gonna be able to guide you through every game of your chess career.


    As for HOW to analyze games, here is my cheap opinion.


    Turn your engine off.

    Play through your loss move by move on the first go round. Try to write down what you were thinking when you made your moves. Don't criticize the moves or plans on this go around, just try to remember what you were thinking at the time.

    After this, play through again. See if you can come up with better moves than the ones you first had. Write down what you would have played if you could do it over again, then try to find what you think your opponent's best response would be. Try to find where your opponent got an advantage over you. Was it a blunder? Was there a better way to execute your plan? Did you have a plan?


    If you spend money on Fritz, you might as well get some use out of it. On the third time, play through your game on it. Keep your engine off at first, check the way you played the opening with the opening book. Did you or your opponent go astray first? If you did, write down what book move you missed. If your opponent did, see if there is some way you could have used his deviation to your advantage.

    Play through the game with your engine on now, if you blundered your engine should tell you where. See if where the engine says you went wrong matches where you think you could have played better.

    Now go back to the notes you made on your game. Put in the position you would have played on the board you came up during your analysis and have the engine analyze it. See what side it gives the advantage to.


    Come with a final analysis and post it on here and see what people think 🙂
  15. 09 Aug '10 10:00
    Hi Mad Rook

    Ha (Oh Dear - more fodder for Ruxton & Aagaard ) 🙁

    I told you I was flying low when talking about endings.

    Quote:

    "....but if it's cute endgame nonsense then we are both in trouble.



    If White is to move here he losses. Black to move it is a draw.
    You are right this position can be reached with Black to move.
    I had him going to g2 instead of f2!
    (ah well it proves I don't box these things when I do them...perhaps I should) 😉

    OK Piriah it looks like it's me and you for endgame study...er....
    well perhaps me more than you.

    Never figured out why I have spotted and pulled off some nice OTB
    combinations and can often see these the moment they appear on the board.

    But in tepid endgames requiring triangulation and opposition etc..
    I really have to dig them out and that's if I spot them at all.

    Ah well, at least I know myself