Originally posted by AThousandYoungCan anyone help me understand why the Knight goes d7-b6-c4 instead of to c6?
Thanks no1!
I always play my QN to c6. I see you went Nd7-b6-c4. This same pattern is in both the example games I posted (the second one was stolen from another thread by robbie, by the way...it's some sort of championship game from this site). Why this choice?
I also see that you didn't bothered to develop your KB and castle until the end. How did you know you could delay those moves?
- Joined
- 16 Feb 07
- Moves
- 27653
Originally posted by AThousandYoungMaybe someone else knows how to answer this better than I, but I'll take a crack at it.
Can anyone help me understand why the Knight goes d7-b6-c4 instead of to c6?
Its hard to give a general answer to this, because it depends on how white plays and sometimes its a matter of taste for black, but, in general, in the variations where black plays a6 and b5 (or intends to play them), he needs to put his knight at d7 because he doesn't want to block his bishop at b7. These are usually the variations where white is going for a quick kingside attack and black needs to play fast on the queenside.
In a lot of the classical variations where white plays Be2 and usually a4, blacks knight is better off at c6 so it covers a5. If white gets in a4-a5, it can get really hard for black to get any play. Black can still play his knight to c4, but it goes Nc5-a5-c4.
3 edits
Originally posted by AThousandYoungit depend which variation that you shall play, in some it can go unhindered to c6, but remember this half open c
Can anyone help me understand why the Knight goes d7-b6-c4 instead of to c6?
file is a gateway into whites camp, thus we see thematic moves on
the c file, for example the exchange sacrifice with RxNc3 ,
which is very effective against whites king if castled
queenside. in the case of the 6.Bg5 mainline, it protects
the knight on f6, for it is sometimes no good taking
back with the bishop. for example consider this position
this is the main line 6.Bg5 Najdorf variation as played in
Ulysses72 game. in this position white takes back with
the bishop rather than the knight, now this would not
happen as we have a knight on d7, so just imagine if
the knight was on c6 instead and black was forced to
take back with the bishop which looks a reasonable
move, but it actually gives white a promising piece
sacrifice, after, 12.Bxb5 axb5 13.Ndxb5 (hitting the queen)
followed by Nxd6+ and e5 with a very strong attack
for white, so to prevent all of that we play Nd7,
ready to retake with our other horsie, and simply
absorb whites attack until he runs out of steam
and gets wasted!
perhaps we could look at these two themes, the
exchange sacrifice for black, and the piece sacrifice
for white, i am sure that i posted them somewhere,
two brilliant games.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHow would retaking with a Knight instead of a Bishop stop all that?
it depend which variation that you shall play, in some it can go unhindered to c6, but remember this half open c
file is a gateway into whites camp, thus we see thematic moves on
the c file, for example the exchange sacrifice with RxNc3 ,
which is very effective against whites king if castled
queenside. in the case of the 6.Bg5 mainline, it p ...[text shortened]... the piece sacrifice
for white, i am sure that i posted them somewhere,
two brilliant games.
9 edits
for athousandyoung
it must be noted that there are many variations of the Najdorf,
where the whole scheme of things for white is to castle queen-side
and launch a pawn storm on blacks position. if black survives, he stands well.
it seems to me that the problem facing white is that
black gets such a strong centre, that if he can halt whites
advance he gets the better of things, thus what follows are thematic
moves (it was such a brilliant idea from Macpo, that instead of
learning variations, if we can identify the positional aspects which
lead to thematic moves then this will stand us well) which allow black
to stop whites pawn storm before beginning the process of queen-side activity, which in essence
amounts to a minority attack! particularly the move ...g5
here is the first game, ...g5 played quite early in the opening to
stifle whites plans
white has a lead in development which he shall try to exploit,
black will try to stifle whites king-side pawn storm
Dragoljub Janosevic - Robert James Fischer
Belgrade 1958
position after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3
a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.Qd3 Bd7 8.f4 Nc6 9.0-0-0 Rc8 10.Kb1 Be7
11.Rg1 h6 12.Bh4 g5
take a look at blacks centre its just awesome, and here the
young Fischer plays the thematic move 12...g5, a move designed
to stifle blacks kingside attack.
some notes on the game:
7.Qd3 an unusual move for white, seems to block the kings
bishop
7...Bd7, black wants to post the knight on c6, which although
he can do right away, if white captures on c6, he can post his
bishop to c6 where it shall become an awesome piece, which
is in fact what happens in the game.
position after 14.Nxc6 Bxc6, note the excellent bishop
the exchange of the f pawn for the g pawn is highly desirable
for black, for having broken up the phalanx of pawns, blacks
centre look invulnerable, but above all, he has secured the e5
square, blacks king is safe enough, its surrounded by enough
pieces and pawns and he threatens to take the initiative with b4,
starting the queen-side minority attack.
position after 13.fxg5 Ng4
conclusion, thematic move like ...g5 can severely stifle whites
play on king side, leaving black with forbidding centre and good
play.
here is the full game.
3 edits
Dear friends, it has just been brought to my attention
by my illustrious friend Ulysses72 that this move ...g5
in the Sicilian has a very, very interesting past. it began
with the Argentinians and the Russians, in 1955. if one can
imagine the delight of the Argentinians, armed with this
move ...g5 against the Russians, they unleashed in tournament
play Gothenberg International 1955 on all three boards.
The legendary Russians, Efm Geller, Boris Spassky and
Paul Keres, each in turn took an avergae of roughly thirty
minutes to decide on their moves, Najdorf himself was
beaming, until each of the Russians found the move
11.Nxe6
Geller,Efim P - Panno,Oscar
Gothenburg Interzonal Gothenburg , 1955
11.Nxe6!
Spassky,Boris V - Pilnik,Herman
Gothenburg Interzonal Gothenburg, 1955
11.Nxe6!
Keres,Paul - Najdorf,Miguel
Gothenburg Interzonal Gothenburg, 1955
one would have thought that this would have surely sunk
the variation forever, but it was not until some three years
later , that a kid from Brooklyn, NY dusted it down and had
a fresh look at it. his opponent Svetozar Gilgoric, world
class GM had been at the same tournament three years
earlier, he had witnessed the demise of the Argentinians.
imagine his surprise as the young Fisher, high on home
preparation, stunned the venue with 9...g5
the rest is chess history.
I must thank ulysses for bring the 'Sicilian vespers', to
our attention and only wish that he was able to post here
in person and give us his thoughts. anyone wishing to
read the enthralling account at chessbase may do so here
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5156
Gligoric,Svetozar - Fischer,Robert James
Portoroz Interzonal Portoroz, 1958
three pawns for a piece anyone?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWow. g5 eh? Never tried that.
for athousandyoung
it must be noted that there are many variations of the Najdorf,
where the whole scheme of things for white is to castle queen-side
and launch a pawn storm on blacks position. if black survives, he stands well.
it seems to me that the problem facing white is that
black gets such a strong centre, that if he can halt whit ...[text shortened]... h5 Kg7 36. h4 Bd7 37. Qf3 Bc6 38. Qh5 Rh6 39. Qg4+ Rg6 40. Qh5 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungyes, but only, i must repeat only only only if you centre is solid, and your king is quite safe, otherwise remember the hapless Argentinians! 🙂 what i am discovering from my researches is that a lot depends on where white puts his queen. In the Fischer game, white put his queen on d3, i think it was, which was quite unusual, as yet i dont understand why. in other games white puts his queen on f3 before playing pawn to f4 and never really gets very good positions (ill post a game to illustrate). Paul Keres, deliberately against Fischer had devised a queen sac, by putting his queen on e3 i think, yet Fischer refuted it over the board. so i think what's best is that we look at all these queen moves and see how black fared ? At least the Fischer game answered why we might want to put a bishop on d7 first and then a knight on c6. 🙂
Wow. g5 eh? Never tried that.