The "touch rule": A VERY trivial question

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
As long as your hand is on the piece I thought you could move it around as much as you wanted. That's not true?

NO, you cannot move it around as much as you want. Perhaps it's not specifically spelled out (I thought it was), but as has been pointed out, there is a ban on "annoying behaviour", and putting a piece on every square available is not only annoying, but boorish. Doing it in a tournament is an incredible breach of etiquette.

A big problem with slobs who do that is half the time they forget what square the piece was originally on and try to make an illegal move. I no longer have a tournament rule book, could have sworn that it was written down somewhere as being prohibited behaviour. It certainly should be.

I got it ! Under article 7, USCF rules of chess, it states:

12.5. It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever; this includes the persistent offer of a draw ,or moving your fricking piece all over the board and checking out every square like a big jerk".

Hope that clears everything up.

me and "sam the sham" are from the same boat...(the rating difference is irrelevant)...the point is...

Chess.... every day is becoming "worse".....what kind of self respecting man who plays chess....moves his peice around multiple squares without "letting go"....for what? to try and "see" something???

I only study one book..."500 master games of chess"(Everyone from Morphy to Alekhine)...why?
Because the men in those games played for the game....
Now...everyone plays for money or just to try and make themselves look good...or pull some crap like the "moving without letting go"...

I have plenty more to say......in due time.

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
I got it ! Under article 7, USCF rules of chess, it states:

12.5. It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever; this includes the persistent offer of a draw ,or moving your fricking piece all over the board and checking out every square like a big jerk".

Hope that clears everything up.

Is that the way the USCF writes its rules? That rule is stated vulgerly and is most unprofessionally stated.

Originally posted by gambit3
Is that the way the USCF writes its rules? That rule is stated vulgerly and is most unprofessionally stated.

Yes that's exactly how it's written, I swear.

i love sam the sham......cracks me up...you see children......if chess had more men like sam the sham and me......it wouldn't be in the pathetic state it is right now.

Originally posted by gambit3
Is that the way the USCF writes its rules? That rule is stated vulgerly and is most unprofessionally stated.

It may be stated vulgarly and unprofessionally, but it sums it up very nicely, doesn't it?

Originally posted by gambit3
Is that the way the USCF writes its rules? That rule is stated vulgerly and is most unprofessionally stated.

Okay, I waited a while before making this post, because Sam The Sham's post WAS pretty funny. But for gambit3's benefit, I guess I need to spell it out - Sam's quote of the USCF rule is entirely fictitious. The USCF has a lot of problems, but even the USCF would never do something that unprofessional. At least I think it wouldn't. 😉

Originally posted by Schumi
On a similar note, if you put a rook on the board upside down as a promoted piece, does it count as a queen or could a picky opponent insist that it's a rook?

It used to be standard that if you promoted to a queen and no queen was available, you'd just pick up a rook and turn it upside down, but sometime in the last few years it's now forbidden to do this. You're supposed to have a real queen on the board, and if you don't have one, you're supposed to either snarf one from a neighboring table or stop your clocks and go to the Tournament Director and have him get you one. I can only imagine the reason for this was just as you said, Schumi, that some doof maintained his opponent did not have an extra promoted queen on the board, and simply was using his rook upside down.

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Originally posted by Schumi
On a similar note, if you put a rook on the board upside down as a promoted piece, does it count as a queen or could a picky opponent insist that it's a rook?

From the U. S. Chess Federation's Official Rules of Chess, 5th edition:

"Rule 8F7 - Promoted piece not available.

If the desired piece is not available to replace a promoted pawn, the player may stop both clocks in order to locate that piece and place it on the board. A player who cannot quickly find such a piece may request the assistance of the director. It is common practice, however, to play using an upside-down rook for a second queen. In the absence of the player's announcement to the contrary, an upside-down rook shall be considered a queen. It is improper to press the clock to start your opponent's time with the pawn still on the last rank. If this is done, the opponent may immediately restart the player's clock without moving.

As soon as the new piece is placed on the board, either player should restart the clock."

I wasn't able to find a similar statement about upside-down rooks in the FIDE rules. However, one international FIDE arbiter, Geurt Gijssen, stated that, since July 1, 2005, an upside-down rook is not considered to be a queen according to FIDE rules. (See the first answer on page 5 of this document - http://www.chesscafe.com/text/geurt99.pdf )

So, it seems that in the USA, the upside-down rook is assumed to be a queen unless stated otherwise, while FIDE rules do not allow this assumption.

Originally posted by Mad Rook
From the U. S. Chess Federation's Official Rules of Chess, 5th edition:

"Rule 8F7 - Promoted piece not available.

If the desired piece is not available to replace a promoted pawn, the player may stop both clocks in order to locate that piece and place it on the board. A player who cannot quickly find such a piece may request the assistance of the dire ...[text shortened]... med to be a queen unless stated otherwise, while FIDE rules do not allow this assumption.

I advise caution on this. At the Counterplay Column on uschess.org, National Tournament Director Tim Just also mentions Rule 9D (page 18 of the 5th edition rules book) which says that the player promoting the pawn must replace it with the appropriate piece and the clock pressed to complete the move. If he presses the clock before the replacement then any appropriate penalties apply. "I would stop the clocks and get a TD at that point," says Tim Just concerning finding an appropriate piece. What you might consider an appropriate piece, your opponent may not, and vice versa.

I've never had a problem with an upside down rook; my opponents never had a problem with an upside down rook. But someone might. And you don't want your game in the hands of a TD/arbiter who may or may not agree with the legitimacy of upside-down rook = queen. Just be careful.

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Originally posted by Doctor Rat
I advise caution on this. At the Counterplay Column on uschess.org, National Tournament Director Tim Just also mentions Rule 9D (page 18 of the 5th edition rules book) which says that the player promoting the pawn must replace it with the appropriate piece and the clock pressed to complete the move. If he presses the clock before the replacement then any may or may not agree with the legitimacy of upside-down rook = queen. Just be careful.

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I hadda press the clock once and no piece was around so I made one out of the ashtray and everyone looked at me weird and then the voices told me to turn the board over and that's when I became a Grandmaster I just had to sell my dirt bike for the certificate an now I roo00OOOLE this site.
You can really go crazy with the official rule book if you want. Life's too short. Just be sensible and everything else follows.

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
I hadda press the clock once and no piece was around so I made one out of the ashtray and everyone looked at me weird and then the voices told me to turn the board over and that's when I became a Grandmaster I just had to sell my dirt bike for the certificate an now I roo00OOOLE this site.
You can really go crazy with the official rule book if you want. Life's too short. Just be sensible and everything else follows.

i've played chess on a picnic table with bottle caps, pocket change, and pieces of twigs. The problem is there are so many insensible people, not like you and me.

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official current fide rules clearly state that both clocks may be stopped by the promoting player only ,immediately upon the players movement of pawn to promotion square with a declaration from the player as to which piece the pawn is being promoted to. both clocks may be stopped to allow this process regardless of the availability or not of the stated promotion piece. should the stated piece be not then immediately available the clocks continue to be stopped until that requested piece be placed upon the board on the promotion square. however the rules do not prevent the promoting player from asking the other player if an upside down rook will be satisfactory for the remainder of the game and if the answer is no, the clocks remain stopped until a proper promotion piece is provided by tournament director or other duly appointed match official. if the answer is yes then a rook may be used immediately and the clocks re-started by promoting player. if no answer is provided then the clocks are to remain stopped until a correct piece is provided by tournament director.It is for the duly appointed official to determine what constitutes a reasonable length of time to complete the promotion process and what does not , before the clocks are restarted again.

Originally posted by Doctor Rat
I advise caution on this. At the Counterplay Column on uschess.org, National Tournament Director Tim Just also mentions Rule 9D (page 18 of the 5th edition rules book) which says that the player promoting the pawn must replace it with the appropriate piece and the clock pressed to complete the move. If he presses the clock before the replacement then any ...[text shortened]... may or may not agree with the legitimacy of upside-down rook = queen. Just be careful.

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I understand your caution on this issue. If I were promoting the pawn, I'd probably stop the clock and get the TD in order to find a proper replacement piece, if for no other reason than I don't care for playing with an upside-down rook.

However, Tim's response in the October 2006 Counterplay article is in the context of a question about whether it's acceptable to press the clock without replacing the pawn with any piece (that is, only announcing what piece the promoted pawn now represents). I see nothing in that Counterplay discussion that would cause concern about using an upside-down rook for a queen in a USCF game.

I understand that any time you make a decision that injects a TD or arbiter into the decision process of a dispute, it's not a lead-pipe cinch that the decision's going to go your way. However, if for some reason I decided to go ahead and use an upside-down rook for a queen in a USCF game, I'd feel very comfortable pointing to USCF Rule 8F7 in my defense. This rule seems very clear to me, and I don't see how any competent TD would be able to rule against me. (And if the ruling did go against me, I could always file an official protest for only a nominal monetary charge.)

I guess a worst-case scenario could be that your opponent decides to lie and claims that you stated that the upside-down rook was something other than a queen (if you said nothing during the promotion). If I decided to use an upside-down rook for a queen, I'd probably play it safe and, while turning the rook upside-down and placing it on the promotion square, I'd say, "I'm promoting the pawn to a queen." But clearly, if you don't want any chance whatsoever of anything going wrong, just stop the clocks and get the TD's help in finding the proper replacement piece.