To 0-0 or not to 0-0-0?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
In my mind there is a Karpov game where he himself forfeits the castle for a very good reason, but for the life of me i cannot remember where i followed that game. when i find it i will post it, for it was very instructive indeed!

Robbie mentioned a Karpov game where he forfiets castling.

This will be it - but it cannot be used to favour the anti-castling lobby.

Karpov captures back on e7 to save a pawn, but note he only too willing
to shed a pawn to keep White uncastled.

You see Portisch lost the game because he did not castle himself.
(he loses his uncastled Rook on h1).
13.0-0 instead of 13.dxc5 looks better.

Portisch - Karpov 1996.



And another Karpov game - this is a beauty.
Here you see the then future World Champion castling and
punishing his opponent who does not.

Hostalet - Karpov 1968



White - who did not castle - resigned after Karpov's 17th move.
I've tagged on Karpov's planned finish. (it's sound).

There that has evened things up - I was fed up seeing these turgid
games with uncastled Kings. I'm happy now.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Robbie mentioned a Karpov game where he forfiets castling.

This will be it - but it cannot be used to favour the anti-castling lobby.

Karpov captures back on e7 to save a pawn, but note he only too willing
to shed a pawn to keep White uncastled.

You see Portisch lost the game because he did not castle himself.
(he loses his uncastled Rook on h ...[text shortened]... ed things up - I was fed up seeing these turgid
games with uncastled Kings. I'm happy now.

Turgid?I looked it up,it has many meanings.
Could you clarify your meaning for me,please 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Hey Beetle a thousand salutations my friend! them 1.e4 ..d6 players surely must be high on the skoosh, them 1.e4 ..e6 players perhaps need some skoosh to loosen them up, anyhow, there seems to this miserable patzer that there may indeed be some valid reasons for delaying the castle. Here is interesting game by the aforementioned Efstratios Grivas, ...[text shortened]... 6. Kxf4 Rc5 47. a4 bxa4 48. bxa4 g5+ 49. Kf3 Ke5 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Thanks for this post Rabbie, have a good time you too!

It 's the first time I see this exact game; however Grivas was just 16 years old back then -and he decided to oppose a standard Sozin weirdly! In the contrary the White played according to the theory by means of retreating early his Bishop to b3 as expected (otherways the normal ...d5 would open the game for the Black) and developing his pieces normally, keeping alive the chances for f3 or f4 or g4.

In my opinion such a position requires an early ...0-0 followed by ...Na6 in order to exert pressure on e4 through an ...Nc5 and/or eliminate the Bb3 whenever this serves the plan of the Black and/ or stregthen the black e pawn in case of f4/ g4, and/or finally support later the latteral thrust ...a5-a4. Of course ...a6 is quite acceptable too, as demonstrated by Bobby Fischer amongst else -but Fischer was at his own universe;

I think that the Black went stranded early and he underrated the attacking chances of the White, therefore he had to be happy with the draw😵

Originally posted by Romanticus
Hey Beetle,
For the record,I don't advocate refraining,or even delaying,from castling.But when I opt to do so then it's for the reasons given earlier.

These instructive games you mention.Are they meant to show a student that it's usually best to castle?Because then it's rather obvious they won't show a game where the king was safe in the middle.
If m ...[text shortened]... ention that not castling happens in,maybe,1% of my games.Probably even less.

Edit: "However the endgame is neither opening nor middlegame, and at each phase our strategical aims are different."

I mean:
At the opening we move aiming to enter the middlegame the way we want in order to apply the ideas that they derive from our strategy (we try to achieve the desired pawn structure and the desired development of our pieces).

At the middlegame we can win solely if we can create or recognize the patterns required in order to proceed according to our plan, therefore we either eliminate the tactics of the opponent or we apply the tactics required for a decicive advantage.

At the endgame it is enough to handle well the required techniques and to calculate with accuracy under time pressure.

But I am sure that you already know it🙂

Greenpawn missed this one !!!

Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
Greenpawn missed this one !!!

[pgn] [Event "Dortmund (Germany)"]
[Site "Dortmund (Germany)"]
[Date "1993.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "1"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Gata Kamsky"]
[Black "Anatoli Karpov"]
[ECO "B17"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "98"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5. Ng5 Ngf6 6. Bd3
e6 7. N1 ...[text shortened]... b3 f3 46. Bd1 Bf5
47. Kc1 Bxh7 48. Rb7 Ke5 49. Rxb6 Rxa2 0-1

[/pgn]

Hi Paul 🙂

For every one of these odd games where a strong player does not castle
I can show you a 100 where the uncastled player got walloped.

Hi Romanticus:

Turgid = any game over 25 moves where one side has not castled 😉

By the way I was not too struck with your example.

I noted your statement that it happens in only 1% of your games.

Good - Well said.

There should have followed a game of what you normally to
do to players who don't castle. A crush.

And I know you have a few games where you hammer uncastled
opponents in your locker.

The example you posted was a bit too 'iffy'.

Your 12.g4 was not the best move in that position.
12.0-0 or Ndf3 were better.

12.g4 should have returned to haunt you because 6 moves later this position appeared.

Black to play his 18th move.



Your opponent played 18...Qd5? when 18...fxg4 was far better.

What were you planning after 18...fxg4 if you are not going to castle, 19.h3.

Look at the diagram - Black has Rb8, hitting the b-pawn
then Rb5 hitting the Queen then either e5 or now Qd5 hitting everything.

Your King would have been stuck in the middle of the board with
his trousers down.

Anymore bad examples posted like that Romanticus and you are
back in Bates Motel at the bottom of the class. 😉

Korch used to roast me in PM's for giving daft jokey advice on here.

"It's a joke, they will see that." I said.

"But they don't, they will believe you, be careful what you say" he replied.

And he was correct, you have to be careful what you post on here.

So please come back and post a crush v an uncastled player.
Put as much effort into it as you did the uncaslted stuff.

Clear Tebb like notes, not to heavy on the analysis. use a diagram.

I'll direct your ex-comrades in Bates Motel to it.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Paul 🙂

For every one of these odd games where a strong player does not castle
I can show you a 100 where the uncastled player got walloped.

Hi Romanticus:

Turgid = any game over 25 moves where one side has not castled 😉

By the way I was not too struck with your example.

I noted your statement that it happens in only 1% of your games. ...[text shortened]... on the analysis. use a diagram.

I'll direct your ex-comrades in Bates Motel to it.

I'm not making a case for not castling.Just saying it's sometimes possible to refrain from it.I know the game isn't great but that was the point.I wanted a low-level game to counter Beetle's objections which I think are true at higher levels of play but not at the foot of the mountain where I wander around.And I couldn't give a better example of my own games because I have none,the 1% thing,you know.....

I'll try to come up with a bad example of a non-castled king crusher so I'm allowed back in the Motel 😵

Originally posted by Romanticus
I'm not making a case for not castling.Just saying it's sometimes possible to refrain from it.I know the game isn't great but that was the point.I wanted a low-level game to counter Beetle's objections which I think are true at higher levels of play but not at the foot of the mountain where I wander around.And I couldn't give a better example of my own ga ...[text shortened]... up with a bad example of a non-castled king crusher so I'm allowed back in the Motel 😵

Hi

"....but not at the foot of the mountain where I wander around."

You are not a bad player.

You are halfway up the mountain, clinging on by you finger nails.

I need that article, so off you go and take your time.

It will be good to show the gang something by an ex-inmate.

Originally posted by Romanticus
I'm not making a case for not castling.Just saying it's sometimes possible to refrain from it.I know the game isn't great but that was the point.I wanted a low-level game to counter Beetle's objections which I think are true at higher levels of play but not at the foot of the mountain where I wander around.And I couldn't give a better example of my own ga up with a bad example of a non-castled king crusher so I'm allowed back in the Motel 😵

what about this little ditty, a truly ambitious try. the author states that two central pawns and an exposed king for a piece are/is playable compensation! who can argue with success?



if this dont get you back in the Motel then i dunno what will 🙂

A Good game that one.

Castle first and philosophise later was my war cry.

Of course 0-0 was a complete blunder.
I remember my team mates looking all aghast at me.

"He's not going to swindle his way out of that one."

There I was stting there two pieces down and and all I had to show
for it was a King on f7.

Do you know I've actually had worse positions than that and still won.

Bates Motel is full and anyway your grade is too high.

I've just spent the last three hours looking at their recent games.

The honeymoon period is over they are all in for shock when they
get their piece of feedback. Most likely have a mutiny on my hands.
I hope they have thick skins.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
A Good game that one.

Castle first and philosophise later was my war cry.

Of course 0-0 was a complete blunder.
I remember my team mates looking all aghast at me.

"He's not going to swindle his way out of that one."

There I was stting there two pieces down and and all I had to show
for it was a King on f7.

Do you know I've actually ha ...[text shortened]... ir piece of feedback. Most likely have a mutiny on my hands.
I hope they have thick skins.

My grade is an illusion! Ive won games against 1800+ players and been hammered from 1300 rated players. I demand a reconsideration on account of my illusory grade, for while it may read 1600+ it is in reality 1400, therefore if any of those who cannot take the counsel decide it is too much, i petition you take me under your wings and make me understand the royal game 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
My grade is an illusion! Ive won games against 1800+ players and been hammered from 1300 rated players. I demand a reconsideration on account of my illusory grade, for while it may read 1600+ it is in reality 1400, therefore if any of those who cannot take the counsel decide it is too much, i petition you take me under your wings and make me understand the royal game 🙂

So now ye lang leggedy beastie ye claim that yer small an light as Nils and that master greenpawn is as efficient as Akka Kebnekaise?😵

By the way I jus' noticed that the game of Grivas you posted was played in 1980 -so the Greek master was solely 14 back then and not 16 years old as I thought; I stand corrected and I am sorry for the inconvenience🙂

Originally posted by black beetle
So now ye lang leggedy beastie ye claim that yer small an light as Nils and that master greenpawn is as efficient as Akka Kebnekaise?😵

By the way I jus' noticed that the game of Grivas you posted was played in 1980 -so the Greek master was solely 14 back then and not 16 years old as I thought; I stand corrected and I am sorry for the inconvenience🙂

Lol, not only small and light, but a small light, a dim one my friend, and is it any wonder? Who can master the immortal game? for it seems that every time I learn a principle there is quite another waiting to refute that which has been learned.

we are told to castle often and early, Yet Capablanca deliberately delayed his castling as a strategic defensive mechanism in order to see what Lasker had planned!

We are told that an active knight is better than a passive bishop, yet Fischer readily exchanged his against Petrosian because he realized that it held his opponents game together

We are told that weak pawns should be mercilessly pursued, Yet the masters are prepared to create a weakened pawn for the sake of active piece play. Fisher himself in his annotations states, 'Black's expectation in this Najdorf Variation is that his control of important central squares, with possibilities of Q-side expansion, will more than compensate for the slight weakness of his backward QP.



We are told, develop your pieces before attacking, Yet none other than Kasparov, completely ignores this advice and embarks on a king side attack while still uncastled and his King sitting in the center! Look at this, is appallingly brilliant in its conception!




what is a poor chess noob supposed to do? there are more conflicting principles and ideas than he knows how to handle, and for every one he knows, one that states it may just not be the case!

Originally posted by Romanticus
I'm not making a case for not castling.Just saying it's sometimes possible to refrain from it.I know the game isn't great but that was the point.I wanted a low-level game to counter Beetle's objections which I think are true at higher levels of play but not at the foot of the mountain where I wander around.And I couldn't give a better example of my own ga ...[text shortened]... up with a bad example of a non-castled king crusher so I'm allowed back in the Motel 😵

Hi Robbie.

You are not missing much, really, it's not something you cannot do
on your own. I have no magic wand.

It's just some commonsense guidance and some puzzles.
Not much more.

Now please stop posting games where good players have not castled.

I have enough trouble without them deciding to stop caslting.

I've got.....

One player who plays the Jerome Gambit.
(white sacs two pieces to defend).

Another who plays 3.Qh5 and and keeps winning!!

Another who thinks he will die if he puts a Rook on an open file.

Another who has mastered the art of blowing a won game.

One merry gentleman who has discovered that if you leave your
pieces on their orginal squares they rarely get taken.

Another who rejoices in moving the same piece 6 or 7 times in the opening.

and Another who thinks the idea of the game is to BE checkmated.

All of them think the a1 and a8 Rook is glued to that square
and never use it.

And.....I'm loving every minute of it. (I think they are too.)

Right I'm off to SITE IDEAS to see Russ about extra fens in posts.

A diagram is worth 8,976 words. (fact).

Everybody go there and rec it to death. (both posts).

it's for your benefit as well.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Robbie.

You are not missing much, really, it's not something you cannot do
on your own. I have no magic wand.

It's just some commonsense guidance and some puzzles.
Not much more.

Now please stop posting games where good players have not castled.

I have enough trouble without them deciding to stop caslting.

I've got.....

One playe
Everybody go there and rec it to death. (both posts).

it's for your benefit as well.

Lol, its bad enough to be distraught with ones own madness, but to involve yourself in another is something quite special, its like the chess equivalent of one flew over the cuckoos nest down there, with Fat Lady cast as nurse Ratchet and you as Randle McMurphy, you must really love chess Greenpawn, no doubt, but i really do believe that there is a niche in the market for those players who are rated 1600 of there about, and who with a little training and understanding could reach 1800 🙂. i dearly loved Mr. Tebbs comments and annotations, they were so clear and unambiguous, it was a pleasure to follow that game!