Was there a win?

Hey,

I recently tried Philidor's defense. I know it isn't the best, but solid enough. A mistake at move 5 (5. ... d5) made me decide to throw all pieces into the attack. I didn't have much hope for succes, but worth the try. My question is whether I could have forced a win somehow or at least gain equality? (I'm black)

Originally posted by tvochess
Hey,

I recently tried Philidor's defense. I know it isn't the best, but solid enough. A mistake at move 5 (5. ... d5) made me decide to throw all pieces into the attack. I didn't have much hope for succes, but worth the try. My question is whether I could have forced a win somehow or at least gain equality? (I'm black)

VelvetEars,

that's already some alternative! In the actual game, after swapping off the queens, I knew that I lost the attack. Your suggestion Bh4 is perhaps not yet enough for a win, but at least better than taking the knight which allows white to develop.

Thanks - added a few more moves just to see where the game could have ended up, definitely think there's a shot at equality there if you pick the safer options. My line is very attack orientated as the white king is quite weak.

Here is my take, changed from move 10 onwards:

Originally posted by VelvetEars
Just had a quick look through and I think you had a half chance at move 10, although there may be the odd flaw in my logic.

[pgn]
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"]
1. Bh4 {Threatening mate on f2} g3 {Stopping the mate threat} 2. Bh3 Ke1 {Forced - Not sure what else black can squeeze from here but an option is...} 3 ...[text shortened]... Qe2 6. O-O {nothing beats a cheeky castle} gxh4 7. Rxf7 ne4 8. Raf8 {Threatening doom}
[/pgn]

Here's a cute idea.It doesn't work but still worth seeing,I think.

Originally posted by morgski
An idea following on from the VelvetEars route

[pgn] [FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"]
1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 {threatening the rook} Bf1 {Probably better for white than moving the rook is the king has another flight square and the Queen is no longer boxed in} 4. Bh1 Nh8 {the danger of not taking the knight} 5. Bc ...[text shortened]... r option is cheeky queenside castle and forsaking the bishop for more armageddon moves} [/pgn]

Originally posted by torten
Here's a cute idea.It doesn't work but still worth seeing,I think.

[pgn][FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 0 10"]
10... O-O {surprise surprise,it's legal!Now,if white simply doesn't bother about his knight and continues cxb7,maybe followed by Bf3 or g3 or Nb5,depending on black's move,then he's winning.But if he tries to save ...[text shortened]... here is no defence.For instance...} 12. g3 Ne4+ 13. Kg2 Qf2 {is checkmate already}[/pgn]

Originally posted by VelvetEars
Just a quick riposte morgski. You know if we keep arguing about tactics we might soon be in for a grudge match 😉

[pgn] [FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"]
1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 Bf1 4. Bh1 Nh8 5. Qg1 {Playtime's not over yet!} [/pgn]

Originally posted by morgski
I like grudge matches 😉

[pgn] [FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"]
1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 Bf1 4. Bh1 Nh8 5. Qg1 g3xh4 {The pin no longer holds} 6. Qxh2 {Not much left on for black} Qe2 {and the queen is out to save the day again} [/pgn]

(and torten that is beautiful, I would never have even come close to seeing that)

Originally posted by torten
Here's a cute idea.It doesn't work but still worth seeing,I think.

[pgn][FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 0 10"]
10... O-O {surprise surprise,it's legal!Now,if white simply doesn't bother about his knight and continues cxb7,maybe followed by Bf3 or g3 or Nb5,depending on black's move,then he's winning.But if he tries to save ...[text shortened]... here is no defence.For instance...} 12. g3 Ne4+ 13. Kg2 Qf2 {is checkmate already}[/pgn]

Hi,

thx all! Too much variations to look at right now. Will do that asap.

".....decide to throw all pieces into the attack. I didn't have much hope for succes,
but worth the try." tvochess.

That belongs in the thread on quotes.

Nice attitude tvo and an entertaining and interesting game.