I recently tried Philidor's defense. I know it isn't the best, but solid enough. A mistake at move 5 (5. ... d5) made me decide to throw all pieces into the attack. I didn't have much hope for succes, but worth the try. My question is whether I could have forced a win somehow or at least gain equality? (I'm black)
I recently tried Philidor's defense. I know it isn't the best, but solid enough. A mistake at move 5 (5. ... d5) made me decide to throw all pieces into the attack. I didn't have much hope for succes, but worth the try. My question is whether I could have forced a win somehow or at least gain equality? (I'm black)
Just had a quick look through and I think you had a half chance at move 10, although there may be the odd flaw in my logic.
FEN
r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"] 1. Bh4 {Threatening mate on f2} g3 {Stopping the mate threat} 2. Bh3 Ke1 {Forced - Not sure what else black can squeeze from here but an option is...} 3. Bg2 {threatening the rook} Rf1 4. Bxf1 Bxf1 5. Ng4 {Threatening mate and allowing an escape route for your bishop. Safe choice is to probably take the knight.} Qe2 6. O-O {nothing beats a cheeky castle} gxh4 7. Rxf7 ne4 8. Raf8 {Threatening doom}
that's already some alternative! In the actual game, after swapping off the queens, I knew that I lost the attack. Your suggestion Bh4 is perhaps not yet enough for a win, but at least better than taking the knight which allows white to develop.
Thanks - added a few more moves just to see where the game could have ended up, definitely think there's a shot at equality there if you pick the safer options. My line is very attack orientated as the white king is quite weak.
1. e4 e5 2. Ng1f3 d6 3. Bf1c4 Ng8f6 4. Nb1c3 Nb8c6 5. Nf3g5 d5 6. exd5 Bf8c5 7. dxc6 Bc5xf2 8. Ke1f1 Bc8g4 9. Ng5xf7 Qd8d4 10. Bc4e2 {changed from here...} Bh4 {Threatens Qf2 mate} g3 11. Bh3 {Keep the King moving} Ke1 12. Ke8xf7 {King can now take with impunity, h4 bishop is protected by the Queen mate if taken, f file can be utilized by black rooks to join the assault}
Still probably a way out for white, and it is probably that c6 pawn, but this route looks healthier from a black point of view...
***Balls, just saw VelvetEars post after going through the arduous process of playing with the PGN. At least we had the same idea 🙂
Originally posted by VelvetEars Just had a quick look through and I think you had a half chance at move 10, although there may be the odd flaw in my logic.
[pgn]
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"]
1. Bh4 {Threatening mate on f2} g3 {Stopping the mate threat} 2. Bh3 Ke1 {Forced - Not sure what else black can squeeze from here but an option is...} 3 ...[text shortened]... Qe2 6. O-O {nothing beats a cheeky castle} gxh4 7. Rxf7 ne4 8. Raf8 {Threatening doom}
[/pgn]
An idea following on from the VelvetEars route
FEN
r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"] 1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 {threatening the rook} Bf1 {Probably better for white than moving the rook is the king has another flight square and the Queen is no longer boxed in} 4. Bh1 Nh8 {the danger of not taking the knight} 5. Bc6 {getting rid of that pesky pawn} Qe2 {Queen comes out to play. Now the h4 Bishop is in trouble, but moving him gives white the initiative. Other option is cheeky queenside castle and forsaking the bishop for more armageddon moves}
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 0 10"] 10... O-O {surprise surprise,it's legal!Now,if white simply doesn't bother about his knight and continues cxb7,maybe followed by Bf3 or g3 or Nb5,depending on black's move,then he's winning.But if he tries to save it....} 11. Ng5 {?} Bh4 {Now velvetears idea is a killer!Threatening mate and a discovered check.There is no defence.For instance...} 12. g3 Ne4+ 13. Kg2 Qf2 {is checkmate already}
Originally posted by morgski An idea following on from the VelvetEars route
[pgn] [FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"]
1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 {threatening the rook} Bf1 {Probably better for white than moving the rook is the king has another flight square and the Queen is no longer boxed in} 4. Bh1 Nh8 {the danger of not taking the knight} 5. Bc ...[text shortened]... r option is cheeky queenside castle and forsaking the bishop for more armageddon moves} [/pgn]
Just a quick riposte morgski. You know if we keep arguing about tactics we might soon be in for a grudge match 😉
FEN
r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"] 1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 Bf1 4. Bh1 Nh8 5. Qg1 {Playtime's not over yet!} Ne2 {A nice defensive move} 6. Qxh2 {and a few threats are still in the air}
Originally posted by torten Here's a cute idea.It doesn't work but still worth seeing,I think.
[pgn][FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 0 10"]
10... O-O {surprise surprise,it's legal!Now,if white simply doesn't bother about his knight and continues cxb7,maybe followed by Bf3 or g3 or Nb5,depending on black's move,then he's winning.But if he tries to save ...[text shortened]... here is no defence.For instance...} 12. g3 Ne4+ 13. Kg2 Qf2 {is checkmate already}[/pgn]
You see, this is why you keep beating me torten. Very nice.
The other reason is probably me regarding mad attacks as 'playtime'
edit: I think if white does play cxb7, the mate threats for black might throw a spanner in white's plan
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"] 1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 Bf1 4. Bh1 Nh8 5. Qg1 g3xh4 {The pin no longer holds} 6. Qxh2 {Not much left on for black} Qe2 {and the queen is out to save the day again}
(and torten that is beautiful, I would never have even come close to seeing that)
Originally posted by morgski I like grudge matches 😉
[pgn] [FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"]
1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 Bf1 4. Bh1 Nh8 5. Qg1 g3xh4 {The pin no longer holds} 6. Qxh2 {Not much left on for black} Qe2 {and the queen is out to save the day again} [/pgn]
(and torten that is beautiful, I would never have even come close to seeing that)
Good point. I'll grudge you once I'm no longer playing 6 games.
possibly...
FEN
r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b - - 0 1"] 1. Bh4 g3 2. Bh3 Ke1 3. Bg2 Bf1 4. Bh1 Nh8 5. Qg1 g3xh4 {The pin no longer holds} 6. Ng4 Qe2 7. Nxh2 {trying to cluster all of black's pieces in the bottom right corner. Edit: possibly a forced mate for white after Qxe5}
Originally posted by torten Here's a cute idea.It doesn't work but still worth seeing,I think.
[pgn][FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 0 10"]
10... O-O {surprise surprise,it's legal!Now,if white simply doesn't bother about his knight and continues cxb7,maybe followed by Bf3 or g3 or Nb5,depending on black's move,then he's winning.But if he tries to save ...[text shortened]... here is no defence.For instance...} 12. g3 Ne4+ 13. Kg2 Qf2 {is checkmate already}[/pgn]
I'm not sure there is a safe route for white after O-O...
FEN
r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 0 10
[FEN "r3k2r/ppp2Npp/2P2n2/4p3/3q2b1/2N5/PPPPBbPP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 0 10"] 10... O-O {torten's supermove} 11. cxb7 {the logical move I think} Bh4 {VelvetEars' route} 12. g3 Bh3 13. Ke1 Ra8b8 {white now has to choose between d3, Bf3, or Bf1, and he's got a lot to think about}
This was a really interesting game to pull apart 🙂
Was there a win?
11 Oct '11 15:11
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