Inspired by the white vs. black thread that was recently revived, I began to wonder what the results look like when the same engine on a computer with the same specs are matched against each other?
I know that engines vary their openings, but once they get out of book do they play exactly the same way each time? What is the W/L/D record over a large number of games? What does this tell us about the nature of chess--is it a forced draw?
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Originally posted by droflaceWhen an engine plays itself it both wins and loses simultaneously or it scores two draws simultaneously.
Inspired by the white vs. black thread that was recently revived, I began to wonder what the results look like when the same engine on a computer with the same specs are matched against each other?
I know that engines vary their openings, but once they get out of book do they play exactly the same way each time? What is the W/L/D record over a large number of games? What does this tell us about the nature of chess--is it a forced draw?
Therefore %wins=%loses
This concept also works for people😛
Originally posted by droflaceI dunno but try to google something like shredder vs. shredder or so.
Inspired by the white vs. black thread that was recently revived, I began to wonder what the results look like when the same engine on a computer with the same specs are matched against each other?
I know that engines vary their openings, but once they get out of book do they play exactly the same way each time? What is the W/L/D record over a large number of games? What does this tell us about the nature of chess--is it a forced draw?
In most cases it is a draw.
Not really a precise answer, but here are some links that might shed some light on what happens when an engine plays itself:
1) http://ssdf.bosjo.net/
2) Game 2651701
Originally posted by droflaceI don't have an exact answer for you, but I'm currently running an engine-engine tournament on my PC that's close to your scenario. I'm running two Toga engines in Arena, the only difference is that one engine has one setting changed. So they're not perfectly identical. Right now it's about 50 percent draws. Maybe in a few days I'll run the tourney with perfectly identical engines and let you know the result.
Inspired by the white vs. black thread that was recently revived, I began to wonder what the results look like when the same engine on a computer with the same specs are matched against each other?
I know that engines vary their openings, but once they get out of book do they play exactly the same way each time? What is the W/L/D record over a large number of games? What does this tell us about the nature of chess--is it a forced draw?
Not exactly the same engine because two versions, but same opening with colors reversed. Both game played on same computer with all else the same for the two competitors. The Fritz software easily facilitates such matches, but the same engine cannot play itself except in shootout mode:
(1302) Fritz 5.32 (2560) - Fritz 7 [C42]
UCIvFritzquad S0026845731, P3 M 256 (3), 22.11.2004
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Qe7 4.Nf3 Qxe4+ 5.Be2 Be7 6.d4 0–0 7.0–0 Qc6 8.Nc3 d5 9.Re1 Qb6 10.Bg5 Nbd7 11.Bb5 Bb4 12.Bd3 c6 13.Qd2 Bd6 14.Nh4 Qxb2 15.Rab1 Qa3 16.Rb3 Qa5 17.Nf5 Bb4 18.Bh6 Re8 19.Bxg7 Rxe1+ 20.Qxe1 Bf8 21.Bxf8 Nxf8 22.Ne7+ Kg7 23.Bf5 Bd7 24.Bxd7 N8xd7 25.Nf5+ Kg6 26.Nd6 h6 27.Qe2 Rb8 28.Qd3+ Kg7 29.Qe3 Kg6 30.a4 Qd8 31.Ne2 Qf8 32.Qd3+ Kg7 33.Ng3 Kh8 34.Ngf5 h5 35.Nh6 Kg7 36.Qd2 Kh7 37.Nhxf7 Ne4 38.Nxe4 dxe4 39.Qf4 h4 40.Rh3 Kg7 41.Rxh4 Nf6 42.Nh6 1–0
(1489) Fritz 7 (2701) - Fritz 5.32 [C42]
rating S0026845731, P3 M 256 (4), 02.12.2004
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nxe5 0–0 5.Nd3 Bxc3 6.dxc3 Nxe4 7.Be3 Re8 8.Nf4 Qh4 9.g3 Qe7 10.Qf3 Nf6 11.Nh5 Nxh5 12.Qxh5 Qe5 13.Qxe5 Rxe5 14.Kd2 d6 15.Bd3 Nc6 16.Rae1 Re7 17.Bg5 Rxe1 18.Rxe1 Be6 19.b3 h6 20.Bf4 g5 21.Be3 Re8 22.h4 f6 23.f4 gxh4 24.gxh4 Kf7 25.Be2 Re7 26.Rg1 Bf5 27.Bc4+ Be6 28.Bd3 f5 29.h5 Re8 30.Rg6 Rh8 31.Bd4 Nxd4 32.cxd4 c6 33.Bc4 d5 34.Be2 Ke7 35.c3 Bf7 36.Rg3 Kf6 37.Bf3 a5 38.Rg1 b6 39.c4 dxc4 40.bxc4 Rd8 41.Kd3 Rd6 42.Rb1 c5 43.d5 Be8 44.a3 Bf7 45.Rb3 Be8 46.Ke3 Ke7 47.Rb2 Ba4 48.Rb1 Be8 49.Kd2 Ba4 50.Re1+ Kd8 51.Kc3 Rd7 52.Rg1 Rd6 53.Rg7 Bd7 54.Be2 Be8 55.Kd3 Rd7 56.Rg8 Ke7 57.Rh8 Rd6 58.Bf3 Bf7 59.Ke3 Rf6 60.Rb8 Rd6 61.a4 Kf6 62.Kd3 Kg7 63.Kc3 Kf6 64.Be2 Kg7 65.Rb7 Kf6 66.Kd3 Bg8 67.Ke3 Bf7 68.Ra7 Rd8 69.Rc7 Rd6 70.Bf3 Bg8 71.Rc8 Bf7 72.Rh8 Kg7 73.Ra8 Kf6 74.Kf2 Kg7 75.Rb8 Kf6 76.Rb7 Bg8 77.Ke2 Bf7 78.Ke3 Bg8 79.Bd1 Bf7 80.Rb8 Kg7 81.Kf2 Kf6 82.Ke1 Kg7 83.Kd2 Kf6 84.Kc3 Kg7 85.Rb7 Kf6 86.Kd3 Bg8 87.Rc7 Bf7 88.Be2 Bg8 89.Ra7 Bf7 90.Ra8 Ke7 91.Rb8 Be8 92.Bd1 Bf7 93.Rb7+ Kf6 94.Kd2 Bg8 95.Bf3 Bf7 96.Be2 Bg8 97.Ke1 Bf7 98.Bf3 Bg8 99.Rb8 Bf7 100.Kd2 Ke7 101.Kd3 Be6 102.Ke3 Bf7 103.Rh8 Be8 104.Bd1 Bf7 105.Rb8 Kf6 106.Rc8 Ke7 107.Rc7+ Kf6 108.Kf2 Bg8 109.Bc2 Bf7 110.Rxf7+ Kxf7 111.Bxf5 Kf6 112.Bd3 Ke7 113.Kf3 Kf6 114.Bf1 Ke7 115.Ke4 Kf6 116.Bh3 Ke7 117.Ke5 Rd8 118.Be6 Rd6 119.f5 Rd8 120.f6+ Ke8 121.Kf5 Rd6 122.Kg6 b5 123.Kg7 Kd8 124.f7 Rd7 125.Bxd7 Kxd7 126.axb5 a4 127.f8Q a3 128.d6 1–0
Originally posted by droflaceYeah, I don't see how a 1249 could see a draw in that position, or how someone rated so much higher could accept such a draw. (I guess that was the point of the post.)
This is all very intriguing. Particularly the game posted by DawgHaus (I am guessing they were both later banned for engine use?) where a pawn was left sitting on a two-move tactic which was then accepted by the other side...
Originally posted by Fat mans revengeOh, OK, then I guess I don't get it. Maybe I'm just dense. 🙂
The player that is now rated 1200 was actually rated over 2150 when that game took place.
Edit - Ah, just looked at the two rating charts. Makes sense now. The confusion was that at first I only searched for the names on the banned player list and didn't find either one.
Edit 2 - This is strange, I just searched the banned players list again, and this time I found both players' names. I don't know how I messed up the first search. I guess I need more coffee... 😳
Originally posted by Wulebgreven without analysing, about half of the moves in those games look pretty silly. they might be tactically sound, but nevertheless totally pointless. both engines are just moving pieces around, 'waiting' for something to randomly drop 1 half move beyond the opponent's horizon. especially the latter game is a good example of that.
Not exactly the same engine because two versions, but same opening with colors reversed. Both game played on same computer with all else the same for the two competitors. The Fritz software easily facilitates such matches, but the same engine cannot play itself except in shootout mode:
(1302) Fritz 5.32 (2560) - Fritz 7 [C42]
UCIvFritzquad S0026845731, P ...[text shortened]... e8 121.Kf5 Rd6 122.Kg6 b5 123.Kg7 Kd8 124.f7 Rd7 125.Bxd7 Kxd7 126.axb5 a4 127.f8Q a3 128.d6 1–0
can you get some modern engines to play as well, like rybka vs. hiarcs or something like that? it would be interesting to see if they play as ridiculously despite all hype for better strategic play.
Originally posted by wormwoodTest groups such as CCRL and CEGT test the latest engines and the games can be downloaded.
can you get some modern engines to play as well, like rybka vs. hiarcs or something like that? it would be interesting to see if they play as ridiculously despite all hype for better strategic play.
The latest Rybka is much stronger than Fritz 5.32. However, if this was based on tactical ability alone, the difference is much smaller. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Fritz 5.32 is still slightly better in tactical tests. So, how do you categorise the factors that make Rybka stronger overall? Would you term it “positional ability”, “strategic ability” or what? It’s not tactical ability.