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  1. Standard member UmbrageOfSnow
    All Bark, No Bite
    29 Jun '06 16:50
    Game 2217346
    I know this game was played a bit sloppily and there are plenty of improvements for both of us, but would anyone else resign this game given the end position. I thought that was a drawn endgame, or maybe even better for him a little. Can anyone show me what obvious line would have made that a win for me or isn't there one.
  2. Standard member agentreno
    Addicted
    29 Jun '06 18:29
    I'm certainly no expert but it seems to me that with the help of white's king, the a5 pawn would have been promoted or else black would have to have given up his rook. Unless I'm wrong (more than likely), white's other three pawns could have resisted any attempts by black to promote his pawns making this an inevitable win by white hence the resignation of black.

    Can anyone else comment on that?
  3. 29 Jun '06 18:51
    Originally posted by agentreno
    I'm certainly no expert but it seems to me that with the help of white's king, the a5 pawn would have been promoted or else black would have to have given up his rook. Unless I'm wrong (more than likely), white's other three pawns could have resisted any attempts by black to promote his pawns making this an inevitable win by white hence the resignation of black.

    Can anyone else comment on that?
    looks like a dead draw to me.
    black just moves his king g7-h7 what can white do?

    if he plays Ra8-a6-a7 now the king can't get close to the a pawn because black just checks from behind and the king has no where to hide.

    If white first brings his king to a7 then black can chomp the pawns and sac the rook leaving 3 pawns v a rook at least a draw considering the white king is so far away.

    the only remaining option is to give up the a pawn and i don't see how white can use it to his advantage if the black king stays where it is; all of the black pawns are secure.
  4. 30 Jun '06 06:09
    I agree, most likely a draw but black needs to play some accurate moves to hold it.

    a.) If white first plays Ra8 and a6-a7 it is a clear draw: Black must keep the rook behind a-pawn and move the king between h7-g7, if king tries to get near the a-pawn all black needs to do is give checks.
    [If black king now plays 1...Kg6 then 2.Rg8+ wins (or after f6 is played to 1...Kf7 then 2.Rh8 with idea of 2...Rxa7 3.Rh7+)]

    b.) If white first tries to activate his king and black plays passively (i.e. Kg7-Kh7) white wins: white king near the a-pawn and can play Rb6 if black gives check on Rb1+

    c.) If white king moves closer to a-pawn and black plays actively it becomes unclear, probably a draw (because white king must not lose the kingside pawns). Black needs to play Ra3 and prevent white king from getting near the a-pawn, also if king forces his way towards queenside the white pawns on kingside will fall and black gets connected passers that are stronger than white rook.

    This is actually rather interesting position, well worth copying to Fritz etc. and training against a chess engine.
  5. 30 Jun '06 19:36
    Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
    Game 2217346
    I know this game was played a bit sloppily and there are plenty of improvements for both of us, but would anyone else resign this game given the end position. I thought that was a drawn endgame, or maybe even better for him a little. Can anyone show me what obvious line would have made that a win for me or isn't there one.
    It seems like a draw to me, because if white ever tried to bring his king near the pawn, Black's rook would check him like crazy. Also, in the event that the white king did make it to the pawn, black may be able to gobble some white kingside pawns and might make it into a draw.
  6. 30 Jun '06 19:48 / 2 edits
    I think I could promote the white passed pawn easily. There's no way for black to advance his pawns. For instance, consider this example. If you bring the white rook to a8 and get the pawn to a7, any check by rook from the 8th rank, as long as the king cannot take you, will result in a safe promotion. And if the black king just moves back and forth, well the white king can do some damage. There are other ways too.
  7. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    01 Jul '06 13:27
    Originally posted by hahahaaaa
    I think I could promote the white passed pawn easily. There's no way for black to advance his pawns. For instance, consider this example. If you bring the white rook to a8 and get the pawn to a7, any check by rook from the 8th rank, as long as the king cannot take you, will result in a safe promotion. And if the black king just moves back and forth, well the white king can do some damage. There are other ways too.
    The position you are aiming for is the king on b8 and the rook on b7 to stop checks, the problem is that there is no way of getting to it provided black is careful. You can't get the rook out from a8 unless the king is on b7 and as soon as it gets there black can check from b1. This is a draw as the rook is on the wrong side of the pawn and if for example 38. Ke2 Ra3 prevents the king from getting past the 2nd rank and 38. Kf3 Ra4 also stops white getting his king into it. I can't see a way of making progress on the kingside, so it's a draw.
  8. 01 Jul '06 13:44 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    The position you are aiming for is the king on b8 and the rook on b7 to stop checks, the problem is that there is no way of getting to it provided black is careful. You can't get the rook out from a8 unless the king is on b7 and as soon as it gets there black can check from b1. This is a draw as the rook is on the wrong side of the pawn and if for examp ...[text shortened]... ting his king into it. I can't see a way of making progress on the kingside, so it's a draw.
    Let's say black's king went to g6 for example. A g8 check would result in a pawn promotion if the pawn is on a7. But if black keeps his king on the seventh rank, I believe the white king and his 3 pawns could do damage.

    Also Kf3 will get white pass the second rank.
  9. 01 Jul '06 14:09 / 2 edits
    This is a draw.

    The black rook will always end up behind the white pawn. Try reading "Secrets of Rook Endings" by John Nunn.



    The final position would probably look something like this.

    Check, check, check, rook back behind the pawn.
  10. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    01 Jul '06 15:02
    Originally posted by hahahaaaa
    Let's say black's king went to g6 for example. A g8 check would result in a pawn promotion if the pawn is on a7. But if black keeps his king on the seventh rank, I believe the white king and his 3 pawns could do damage.

    Also Kf3 will get white pass the second rank.
    No, 38. Kf3 Ra4 and you are still stuck. The pawn on g5 prevents you using the e-pawn as a shield because you can't put the king on f4. You can't even try Kg2 and h4 as black can take the e-pawn, or if the pawn has already reached a7 then just check from a2. Black has to make a serious mistake to lose this position.
  11. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    01 Jul '06 15:09
    Originally posted by Bedlam
    This is a draw.

    The black rook will always end up behind the white pawn. Try reading "Secrets of Rook Endings" by John Nunn.

    Edit: cut out diagram.
    .
    I've been thinking about buying that. Would you recommend it? I have two of his other books and like his writing, but I'm wary of the notion that you can read your way to chess excellence - so I only buy a book if there is a specific reason to. I think with endgames there is a chance they can be useful, but for example with tactics I doubt that you'll learn anything from a book unless you are a total beginner and then you'll probably be better off just writing down your games and using an engine to see what you missed afterwards. But rook and pawn endings have come up twice recently and I've been disadvantaged by my relatively poor technique, does the book cover elementary positions such as the one you posted?
  12. Standard member Mctayto
    Highlander
    01 Jul '06 15:33
    Originally posted by Bedlam
    This is a draw.

    The black rook will always end up behind the white pawn. Try reading "Secrets of Rook Endings" by John Nunn.

    [fen]6R1/1k4P1/5K2/8/8/8/8/6r1 b - - 0 60[/fen]

    The final position would probably look something like this.

    Check, check, check, rook back behind the pawn.
    If Bedlam states a draw then that is good enough for me
  13. 01 Jul '06 16:08 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I've been thinking about buying that. Would you recommend it? I have two of his other books and like his writing, but I'm wary of the notion that you can read your way to chess excellence - so I only buy a book if there is a specific reason to. I think with endgames there is a chance they can be useful, but for example with tactics I doubt that you'll l tively poor technique, does the book cover elementary positions such as the one you posted?
    Its a pretty good book, only deals with K+R+P vs K+R. However it goes into massive detail about the positions. The book is 352 pages long with say a 70/30% in terms of explanation/notation. The book offers a lot of good ideas which wouldn’t normally be apparent or at least would have to have a fair amount of time spent working out OTB. A lot of the positions are pulled from real games with analysis offered on the play, its intresting seeing GMs get it wrong

    "does the book cover elementary positions such as the one you posted?"
    Yes its aimed to give the reader the ability to assess positions and then play the correct plan.

    Would I recommend it?......I think if you are serious or semi serious about chess then its certainly a good book to read. I certainly enjoyed reading it and learned a lot, Im much more confident now entering a rook+pawn ending than I was before.
  14. 01 Jul '06 20:12 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Bedlam
    This is a draw.

    The black rook will always end up behind the white pawn. Try reading "Secrets of Rook Endings" by John Nunn.

    [fen]6R1/1k4P1/5K2/8/8/8/8/6r1 b - - 0 60[/fen]

    The final position would probably look something like this.

    Check, check, check, rook back behind the pawn.
    I know my rating is not as high as yours, but in the diagram you show it doesn't appear to me to account for a few factors. There are still 3 pawns on the kingside. To keep a draw, Black's king cannot leave the seventh rank. Black's rook cannot leave the a file. White's king can make progress up the board by moving towards the black rook. If there were no other pawns, I would say it was a draw. But an active king against an impotent one, I think results in a win for white.

    Besides, perfect chess was not being played here.
  15. 01 Jul '06 20:33 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by hahahaaaa
    I know my rating is not as high as yours, but in the diagram you show it doesn't appear to me to account for a few factors. There are still 3 pawns on the kingside. To keep a draw, Black's king cannot leave the seventh rank. Black's rook cannot leave the a file. White's king can make progress up the board by moving towards the black rook. If there wer ...[text shortened]... ne, I think results in a win for white.

    Besides, perfect chess was not being played here.
    The A pawn can never promote and while blacks rook is pinned to the a file the same is true for your rook. Your pawns and king wont make any progress against the black pawns and king. You say blacks king is cut off......from what?......on the other hand black can always play Ra4.......the more you push the A pawn the less active your rook gets and the more active black rook becomes. At the end of the day the only way you could make progress is to use the A pawn as a distraction. Even after that I really cant see any way you could gain an advantage.




    This is the other way the game could go.

    Again check check check, then back behind the pawn.

    Basicly all black has to do is keep the king where it is and the rook behind the pawn. the king gets close to the A pawn, then black goes check happy slappy. The king moves towards blacks rook and the rook just shuffles up and down the A file.