Why?

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
I don't believe the premise is true. In Gligoric's book on the Nimzo-Indian Defense, he names more variations than exist in the French and Caro Kann combined, I think. And don't even get started on the Slav!

Aye its a wee bit Czech Benoni!

Originally posted by Big Orange Country
but surely the slav and nimzo-indian pale in comparison to the volume of theory wrapped up in the Sicilian alone?

Throw in the Queen's Indian to the Nimzo ('cause after all they easily slide together in many lines) and you'll see a tree as big and thorny as the Sicilian. Names don't make an opening or a variation - positions do.

The problem here is that so many people considering this problem are counting up the named openings to quantify the issue. This means absolutely nothing. If someone could figure out a way to count up the number of stratagies or base positions reached then the point could be taken seriously, but not until then.

1.e4 is more popular for the club player because despite the complexity of the positions reached (and the daunting number of names flying around) the moves are for the most part fairly obvious for a while into the openings (hence the depth of theory) thus actually leaving very little to memorize. The stratagies are easy to see, and therefore 1.e4 is quite committal for both sides.

1.d4 however (and in extension 1.c4 which often transposes) offers a great flood of possible stratagies as it (they) offer fewer obvious weaknesses to attack. Few players, especially at the club level, are dedicated enough to try memorizing all the possibilities for white and black so it seems like there is less theory. Also, this flexibility leads to positions repeating less often, which then leads to less accidental memorization by rote (playing the same moves again and again).

In conclusion, I would say that there are more positions--and therefore variations--following 1.d4 than following 1.e4. The number of variations is so great after 1.d4, in fact, that naming them all would be more trouble than it is worth.

One last side note. I have experienced on a few occasions 1.d4 openings actually transposing into supposed 1.e4 lines (usually into Sicilian lines I believe), so perhaps the line between the two is more gray than black?

Originally posted by greenpawn34
1.d4

Stonewall
Trompowsky
Colle
Queen's Gambit
Grünfeld (B)
Catalan
Benoni (B)
Kings's Indian (B)
Queen's Indian (B)
Budapest (B)
Dutch (B)
Nimzo Indian (B)
Chigorin(B)
Alapin(B)
[/b]

Are you putting the Slav, Semi Slav, Tarrasch and QGA in the Queen's Gambit heading? If so that is a ton of theory. Also toss in the Albin Counter, The Chigorin should be in there as well.

the Veresov, the Barry, The Torre attack all need to be added. Throw the Bogo Indian into the the Nimzo complex. Also there are all sorts of d4 lines that don't really have a name and usually get appended to strange eco codes.

Most likely theory is about even between the two.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i dunno, my friend told me that there are about eighteen systems that he needs to know when he plays 1.d4, think of all the Kings Indians and Benonis and Queen Gambits, and Slavs there must be zillions of them.

I am sure you have many friends, but this one has to stand corrected; now the black beastie counts more than 18:

Chigorin-Albin-QG (Accepted/ Declined Tarrasch/ Declined Orthodox/ Declined Slav/ Semi-Slav);
Old Indian-KID-Gruenfeld-NimzoIndian-BogoIndian;
Budapest-Benko-Chech Benoni-Modern Benoni;
Modern-Dutch-English-Miscellaneous (Richter-Veresov included);
and of course Catalan😵

Originally posted by black beetle
I am sure you have many friends, but this one has to stand corrected; now the black beastie counts more than 18:

Chigorin-Albin-QG (Accepted/ Declined Tarrasch/ Declined Orthodox/ Declined Slav/ Semi-Slav);
Old Indian-KID-Gruenfeld-NimzoIndian-BogoIndian;
Budapest-Benko-Chech Benoni-Modern Benoni;
Modern-Dutch-English-Miscellaneous (Richter-Veresov included);
and of course Catalan😵

As a bit of a side item, in the list of ECO codes, all of 'A', 'D', and 'E' are all non-1.e4 openings (almost all 1.d4, most of the remainer 1.c4) and 1.e4 is limited to the 'B' and 'C' lines.

So by official count, 1.d4 wins.

Originally posted by black beetle
I am sure you have many friends, but this one has to stand corrected; now the black beastie counts more than 18:

Chigorin-Albin-QG (Accepted/ Declined Tarrasch/ Declined Orthodox/ Declined Slav/ Semi-Slav);
Old Indian-KID-Gruenfeld-NimzoIndian-BogoIndian;
Budapest-Benko-Chech Benoni-Modern Benoni;
Modern-Dutch-English-Miscellaneous (Richter-Veresov included);
and of course Catalan😵

my goodness there are squillions and zillions 🙂

Originally posted by black beetle
I am sure you have many friends, but this one has to stand corrected; now the black beastie counts more than 18:

Chigorin-Albin-QG (Accepted/ Declined Tarrasch/ Declined Orthodox/ Declined Slav/ Semi-Slav);
Old Indian-KID-Gruenfeld-NimzoIndian-BogoIndian;
Budapest-Benko-Chech Benoni-Modern Benoni;
Modern-Dutch-English-Miscellaneous (Richter-Veresov included);
and of course Catalan😵

Not to question the 18 or your count - I'm far too lazy! But clearly some of the one's you listed are white choices so the friend could create a book without them. For example, don't need all of Queen's Indian if I never play 3.Nf3.

Originally posted by TerrierJack
Not to question the 18 or your count - I'm far too lazy! But clearly some of the one's you listed are white choices so the friend could create a book without them. For example, don't need all of Queen's Indian if I never play 3.Nf3.

Yes, but still they all remain projections of the ground of the 1.d4 mind; methinks the real 1.d4 player should really have no preferances over 3.Nf3 or 3.whatever, for his repertoire against the replies of the Black has to cover every possible Black system. So I see the QG tree as 1.d4 d5 2.c4, and
after 2. ...Nc6 I face Chigorin;
after 2. ...e5 it's Albin;
after 2. ...dc it's QGA;
after 2. ...e6 I could enter QGD, Tarrasch, Semi-Tarrasch, Orthodox, Von Henning-Schara, Triangle;
and after 2. ...c6 I could try Slav or Semi-Slav;

So methinks that if the 1.d4 player really wants to be ready for the 1. ...d5, after 2.c4 he has to be able to handle properly the above mentioned 11 basic systems😵

Originally posted by TerrierJack
Not to question the 18 or your count - I'm far too lazy! But clearly some of the one's you listed are white choices so the friend could create a book without them. For example, don't need all of Queen's Indian if I never play 3.Nf3.

By that same logic there can be very little theory for e4 as well.

1. e4 if e5
2. f4 bam!

1. e4 c5
2. c3 bam!

1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
3. exd5 bam!

you now have avoided a massive amount of theory.

Funny, this is probably what many club players do...

Originally posted by black beetle
Yes, but still they all remain projections of the ground of the 1.d4 mind; methinks the real 1.d4 player should really have no preferances over 3.Nf3 or 3.whatever, for his repertoire against the replies of the Black has to cover every possible Black system. So I see the QG tree as 1.d4 d5 2.c4, and
after 2. ...Nc6 I face Chigorin;
after 2. ...e5 it's ...[text shortened]... ...d5, after 2.c4 he has to be able to handle properly the above mentioned 11 basic systems😵

The Baltic defence (2...Bf5) makes that twelve systems.

Originally posted by geo86012
The Baltic defence (2...Bf5) makes that twelve systems.

I see it rather as a rare QGD variation but I agree with you😵