1. Joined
    30 Oct '04
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    14 Jun '05 07:33
    An interesting position I've stumbled while disproving the corectness of a study of mine πŸ™ Oh, well...

    Can White draw?

    On a side note: if anyone is interested in helping me with a study for the Nunn Tournament give me a PM
  2. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    All My Soldiers...
    tinyurl.com/y9ls7wbl
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    14 Jun '05 07:52
    Originally posted by ilywrin
    An interesting position I've stumbled while disproving the corectness of a study of mine πŸ™ Oh, well...
    [fen]R7/8/3b4/8/N7/pk6/2p5/K7 [/fen]
    Can White draw?

    On a side note: if anyone is interested in helping me with a study for the Nunn Tournament give me a PM
    Absolutely. 1. Rc8 forces the draw. White sacs both pieces for both Pawns and Black doesn't have enough material to mate.
  3. Joined
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    14 Jun '05 08:211 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Absolutely. 1. Rc8 forces the draw. White sacs both pieces for both Pawns and Black doesn't have enough material to mate.
    No! 1.Rc8?? Be5+ 2.Rc3+ (else mate in 1) Bxc3+ 3.Nxc3 (Nb2? then c1Q# ) c1Q+ 4.Nb1 Qb2#

    But 1.Nc5+! does the job: if Bxc5 or Kc4 then Rxa3+ followed by Kb2 (taking on a3 = stalemate)

  4. Standard memberjfkjmh
    nice one
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    14 Jun '05 10:33
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    No! 1.Rc8?? Be5+ 2.Rc3+ (else mate in 1) Bxc3+ 3.Nxc3 (Nb2? then c1Q# ) c1Q+ 4.Nb1 Qb2#

    But 1.Nc5+! does the job: if Bxc5 or Kc4 then Rxa3+ followed by Kb2 (taking on a3 = stalemate)

    1.Nc5+ Kc4 2.Rxa3 no check! c1Q+ 3.Ka2 Qc2+ 4.Ka1 Be5+ 5.Rc3 Bxc3# is not a solution.
    2.Ra4+ doesn't help either: Kxc5 3.Ka2 c1Q 4.Rc4+ Qxc4+ avoiding the stalemate or 4.Ra5+ Kb6 avoiding the stalemate.

    I think the authors intention was 1.Rb8+ allowing the opponent to decide which piece to take. Unfortunaly this doesn't seem to work:
    1. ...Bxb8 2.Nc5+ Kc4 3.Nb3(stalemate motiv) Be5+ 4.Ka2 Bb2 5.Na5+(5.Nd2+ Kd3) Kb4 6Nc6+ Kc5 black wins.
    White doesn't even get the draw after 1. ...Kxa4 2.Rc8 Kb3 (threatening Be5+ once again) 3.Rb8+(stalemate motiv) Kc3 4.Rc8+ Kd2 black wins
    2.Ra8+ would be the next try: Kb4 3.Txa3 (stalemate motiv) c1Q+ wins as described up top(the king on b4 doesn't matter). 3. Rb8+(last try) Kc3 transposes to the line above.

    I believe that White can't force a draw.
  5. Joined
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    37185
    14 Jun '05 11:11
    Originally posted by jfkjmh
    1.Nc5+ Kc4 2.Rxa3 no check! c1Q+ 3.Ka2 Qc2+ 4.Ka1 Be5+ 5.Rc3 Bxc3# is not a solution.
    2.Ra4+ doesn't help either: Kxc5 3.Ka2 c1Q 4.Rc4+ Qxc4+ avoiding the stalemate or 4.Ra5+ Kb6 avoiding the stalemate.

    I think the authors intention was 1.Rb8+ allowing the opponent to decide which piece to take. Unfortunaly this doesn't seem to work:
    1. ...Bxb8 2.Nc5+ ...[text shortened]... 3. Rb8+(last try) Kc3 transposes to the line above.

    I believe that White can't force a draw.
    1.Nc5+ Kc4 2.Rxa3 no check! c1Q+ 3.Ka2 Qc2+ 4.Ka1 Be5+ 5.Rc3 Bxc3# is not a solution.

    Sure, I forgot to mention after Kc4 2.Nb3 Kxb3 and then Rxa3+. Not taking on b3 doesn't help black (white can play Ka2 in most variations). So I believe 1.Nc5+ IS the solution.
  6. Joined
    29 Apr '05
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    827
    14 Jun '05 11:391 edit
    I think jfk was on the right way...

    The idea is to play Rxa3 with check coz then its stalemate. Maybe it works like that:
    1.Nc5+ Kc4 (on 1... Bxc5 comes 2. Rxa3+ right away) 2.Nb3!
    Now it seems Black has to take the knight followed by Rxa3 and stalemate.
    If Black won't take the knight, White might even win after Ka2 or so.
    2... Kxb3 3. Rxa3 + K/Bxa3 stalemate (if Black doesn't take the rook...3... Kc4 then 4. Kb2 and wins the pawn and draw also)

    edit: it seems i was too slow since mephisto figured that out too πŸ˜‰
  7. Standard memberjfkjmh
    nice one
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    14 Jun '05 12:08
    Congratulations, you've fond it!πŸ˜€
    Funny I saw both Nb3 and Rxa3 as stalemate motives but didn't see the the connection. I probably should have looked longer than just a minute😳
  8. Joined
    30 Oct '04
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    7797
    14 Jun '05 12:34
    Indeed 1.Nc5+ is the drawing move πŸ˜‰ I've been wondering if a mechanism for repeated sacrifice of a piece (three or four consecutive times) /like the knight in this occasion/ can be done, and the acceptance of the sacrifice either leads to stalemate or a theoretical draw...
    Well done πŸ™‚
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