Selfmate in 5

In the position below
a) White to play and selfmate in 5, the final move being RxN mate.
b) Black to play and selfmate in 5, the final move being RxN mate.

Originally posted by THUDandBLUNDER
In the position below
a) White to play and selfmate in 5, the final move being RxN mate.
b) Black to play and selfmate in 5, the final move being RxN mate.

[fen]rnbqkb1r/pppppp1p/N5p1/8/n7/1P6/P1PPPPPP/RNBQKB1R[/fen]

Is this possible? I cannot see how White can force Black to mate them /and in five moves no less!?/ or vice versa. Perhaps this is a helpmate problem?

Originally posted by THUDandBLUNDER
In the position below
a) White to play and selfmate in 5, the final move being RxN mate.
b) Black to play and selfmate in 5, the final move being RxN mate.

[fen]rnbqkb1r/pppppp1p/N5p1/8/n7/1P6/P1PPPPPP/RNBQKB1R[/fen]

I can hardly believe this

edit: oops I was not the first to mention this

Perhaps he meant 'helpmate?'

Originally posted by ark13
Perhaps he meant 'helpmate?'

Yeah, sorry.
I meant 'Helpmate in 5'.

Originally posted by THUDandBLUNDER
Yeah, sorry.
I meant 'Helpmate in 5'.

Please explain the rules, i don't know what help mate means officially. 🙂

Originally posted by marinakatomb
Please explain the rules, i don't know what help mate means officially. 🙂

It's a part of heterodox problems (helpmates and selfmates). In helpmates both sides cooperate to get the Black King (usually) mated; selfmate is when White forces Black to mate them (Black does not cooperate).
Have a look here for more details:
http://www.chess.freegames.eu.com/problems-puzzles/helpmate.html

Originally posted by ilywrin
It's a part of heterodox problems (helpmates and selfmates). In helpmates both sides cooperate to get the Black King (usually) mated; selfmate is when White forces Black to mate them (Black does not cooperate).
Have a look here for more details:
http://www.chess.freegames.eu.com/problems-puzzles/helpmate.html

Given that, the poster of the puzzle should make it clear which side is going to be mated in a) resp. b).

Originally posted by Mephisto2
Given that, the poster of the puzzle should make it clear which side is going to be mated in a) resp. b).

Although it is the convention with helpmates that Black moves first and is mated, there is no inherent reason why he should move first. However, this puzzle retains the convention that the side which moves first is mated.

I'm stuck. Without the RxN condition it is easy to find several mates e.g
1.f4 Bg7 2.e4 ~ 3.Kf2 ~ 4.Kg1 Bd4# but with it I always fall short of a move.

Originally posted by ilywrin
I'm stuck. Without the RxN condition it is easy to find several mates e.g
1.f4 Bg7 2.e4 ~ 3.Kf2 ~ 4.Kg1 Bd4# but with it I always fall short of a move.

Try 1. Nc5

Originally posted by THUDandBLUNDER
Try 1. Nc5

I did 🙁

Originally posted by ilywrin
I did 🙁

Then try 1. Nc5 d5

Originally posted by THUDandBLUNDER
Then try 1. Nc5 d5

It's hard to believe that Black's 1st move does nothing towards getting a Rook out. This is a tough problem! (or mistaken stip?!)

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
It's hard to believe that Black's 1st move does nothing towards getting a Rook out. This is a tough problem! (or mistaken stip?!)

Mistaken stip? 😲

Two (or more) moves may be interchangeable.