Certainly not a simple doctrine.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yawn, look if you are unable, unwilling or incapable of addressing the substance why don't you go to general and talk about making fairy cakes there, this here is spirituality for people that are interested in spiritual things and in truth. Nothing you ever say has any spiritual content and is very rarely if ever true. Why don't you simply address ...[text shortened]... ters without your empty statements peppering the forum like litter in a place of natural beauty.

You're just incapable of learning. God knows we've tried.

But you are the same as those who see but do not perceive and hear but do not understand. And yet you think you can tell the world what the Bible "really" means.

Pffffft. Take off. Go back to your sheep. They don't really care what kind of tripe you spew.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I've been waiting for you to 'calm down' just a bit. Seems my wait isn't over quite yet.

Reason cannot get through to someone while they are yelling. Maybe that's why few are eager to engage you. All they get for their trouble is attacks.

It is not my intention to be yelling, or to not be calm. I do however get frustrated when I put out a question like Hey....why did Peter deny Jesus/God?? And the replies I get are.....hey chaney3, why are you even asking.....or.....hey chaney3, sounds like you have made up your mind.

If the disciples had some problems treating Jesus as God, when they KNEW Him, then why should chaney3....2,000 years later, treat Jesus as God??

If I seem frustrated, it's because I keep waiting for an 'A HA' message to reveal something enlightening, but instead, I get criticized for asking a question.

But.....just to be honest......I am certain that my questions will never be answered, and I am kicking myself for even coming back to this forum. If anyone replies and has an answer regarding Peter........they are just guessing at it anyway.

Sorry.......just frustrated now.

Originally posted by chaney3
I have not made up my mind. I simply asked why Judas, Thomas, and Peter had such issues and questions regarding Jesus, and they KNEW Him. If you read my posts, I ask questions.....and am curious if anybody has valid theories about these things. Of course, I would only expect more theories in return.....unless you are one of the arrogant people who claim to K ...[text shortened]... t try to force your beliefs, and criticize me for even asking. Who made YOU the authority anyway???

Originally posted by chaney3
"I have not made up my mind. I simply asked why Judas, Thomas, and Peter had such issues and questions regarding Jesus, and they KNEW Him...."

chaney3, please cite the passages of scripture in which these "such issues and questions regarding Jesus" were raised. I for one appreciate your statement: "I have not made up my mind."

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by chaney3
"I have not made up my mind. I simply asked why Judas, Thomas, and Peter had such issues and questions regarding Jesus, and they KNEW Him...."

chaney3, please cite the passages of scripture in which these "such issues and questions regarding Jesus" were raised. I for one appreciate your statement: "I have not made up my mind."

I don't have the Bible verses handy.....but was referring more to the stories from memory. Judas betraying Jesus to the Romans for money, which led to His crucifixion. Thomas doubted the nature of Jesus. Peter denied knowing Jesus 3 times at the crucifixion.

These incidents are in the New Testament, and I'm sorry I don't have the passages from scripture. It was not my intention to 'teach' anybody anything....I am not qualified for that. I truly don't expect answers....maybe just venting how people seem to know that Jesus is God.....here in 2015, when 2,000 years ago, they didn't believe that. I mean....how could a Roman soldier pierce Jesus with a spear if he thought he was stabbing God? Why didn't the people, all people, back then believe this doctrine.....when Jesus walked the earth??

Sorry, I just keep piling on the questions.....how could Pontious Pilate sentence God to die....if he believed Jesus to be God? I know he didn't believe that to be the case, but why?

Originally posted by chaney3

I don't have the Bible verses handy.....but was referring more to the stories from memory. Judas betraying Jesus to the Romans for money, which led to His crucifixion.

Judas betrayed Jesus not to the Romans but to the Jewish religious power structure. That betrayal is recorded in all four of the Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Something is also said about it in the book of Acts.

Thomas doubted the nature of Jesus.

You are probably talking about Thomas's doubt after Jesus was resurrected. He told the other disciples that He would not believe that Jesus rose and was alive unless he could physically examine the holes in His body. This is in John chapter 20.

Peter denied knowing Jesus 3 times at the crucifixion.

That is true. When the heat was really on, in spite of his faithfulness and enthusiasm Peter caved in. He denied Jesus three times that night to save his own life.

These incidents are in the New Testament, and I'm sorry I don't have the passages from scripture. It was not my intention to 'teach' anybody anything....I am not qualified for that. I truly don't expect answers....maybe just venting how people seem to know that Jesus is God.....here in 2015, when 2,000 years ago, they didn't believe that. I mean....how could a Roman soldier pierce Jesus with a spear if he thought he was stabbing God? Why didn't the people, all people, back then believe this doctrine.....when Jesus walked the earth??

You must realize that people do CHANGE . In each case you mentioned the particular person CHANGED .

One of the Roman soldiers began the execution scoffing at this Man's claims. Toward the end of the ordeal he had a change of heart and believed Christ was indeed Son of God.

Peter also caved in under intensely threatening circumstances.
All the disciples caved in when the darkest moments arose and it became a life and death matter. They all forsook the Master.

Jesus had told them beforehand that they all would forsake Him at that crucial moment of life and death decision to remain absolute for the truth. Only Jesus was absolute for the truth.

Although we don't know too much about the inner motives of Judas Iscariot from the beginning, he either changed or was exposed too. Something happened that so offended him that he could not resist the temptation to turn AGAINST Jesus.

In his case it was more serious than just a denial or a forsaking. He actually turned into an enemy and opposer of Christ. Either he changed or what was deep in him was finally exposed.

Jesus Christ has a away of doing this to us all. Eventually, it seems we have to take some kind of stand.

Sorry, I just keep piling on the questions.....how could Pontious Pilate sentence God to die....if he believed Jesus to be God? I know he didn't believe that to be the case, but why?

Pontious Pilate is an interesting case. I think that he did catch on that Jesus was righteous and innocent. But he was so pressured by the political circumstances that he also caved in. Though Pilate perceived that it was pure jealousy that was driving the persecutors of Jesus and that Jesus was possibly divine too, Pilate had to save his own career. Rather than get on the wrong side of Caesar, Emperor of Rome for allowing "another" king to exist, he succumbed the Jews' mob influence.

He also changed.
In all these cases you have men undergoing a change of heart for various reasons exceedingly critical to them.

We are so sure today that Jesus is real because of the Holy Spirit whom He promised would be imparted into to those who believe into Jesus Christ for salvation.

The Holy Spirit brings into a man something that the world cannot give and the world cannot take away.

Originally posted by sonship

I don't have the Bible verses handy.....but was referring more to the stories from memory. Judas betraying Jesus to the Romans for money, which led to His crucifixion.

Judas betrayed Jesus not to the Romans but to the Jewish religious power structure. That betrayal is recorded in all four of the Gospels - [b]Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Jo ...[text shortened]... ly Spirit brings into a man something that the world cannot give and the world cannot take away.

Okay sonship.....thank you. I presented some questions, and you have given some answers. It is still NOT my intention to debate the Bible. I am having real difficulty with this doctrine, and it seems more than one person has sensed that in my posts.

At this time, all I want to say is this: Based on everything you just wrote......it seems that more than a few men had their own personal battles and doubts during the time they knew Jesus.....and that was men who knew Him. I am dealing with my own doubts and lack of understanding.....and it is 2,000 years later. I realize that faith must be part of the equation, and I am working on it.

I am not trying to offend anyone with my posts. As a matter of fact....maybe I am just merely 'seeking'.....which according to Jesus, is the way I might 'find'.

Thanks.

Originally posted by chaney3
Okay sonship.....thank you. I presented some questions, and you have given some answers. It is still NOT my intention to debate the Bible. I am having real difficulty with this doctrine, and it seems more than one person has sensed that in my posts.

At this time, all I want to say is this: Based on everything you just wrote......it seems that more tha ...[text shortened]... e I am just merely 'seeking'.....which according to Jesus, is the way I might 'find'.

Thanks.

I did a lot of philosophizing, debating and arguing with some Christian friends in my college years. If anyone said I was searching for God it would have been more like a mouse "searching" for a cat. My purpose was to get further away not closer to the Gospel message.

My moment of coming to Christ was very humbling. You see we humans are so entirely fortified with the thought that we HAVE to do SOMETHING in order to earn God's favor. We are permeated with a attitude, conscious and unconscious, that it is up to us to DO SOMETHING.

The thought of just reaching out to receive a GIFT is so radical it just does not come naturally to us. Surely there is something I have to do. Surely there is a level of worthiness that I must attain. I have to bring God something. I have to earn the knowledge of God in some way, producing the needed "funds" to be recompensed by God for my efforts.

Eventually, by God's sheer mercy, I grasped that He didn't want what I could "give." He wanted ME . Then it was just a matter of opening up to let myself receive the free gift of salvation. This is humbling because it goes against every grain of our commercial mentality - that we HAVE to DO our best and bring that to God to be recompensed wages.

By some miracle, and I do mean miracle, I SAW that Jesus Christ was available for me to simply receive with thanksgiving. From my side it seemed FREE. But from God's perspective the price was paid in full at an infinite cost by Jesus, God's Son.

You can save yourself decades, maybe even an entire lifetime, by realizing the knowledge of God is a gift to be received - paid for by Christ on His cross.

Originally posted by sonship
I did a lot of philosophizing, debating and arguing with some Christian friends in my college years. If anyone said I was searching for God it would have been more like a mouse "searching" for a cat. My purpose was to get further away not closer to the Gospel message.

My moment of coming to Christ was very humbling. You see we humans are so entirely f ...[text shortened]... e, by realizing the knowledge of God is a gift to be received - paid for by Christ on His cross.

I appreciate your response. Because of that, I will 'try' to explain more clearly where I stand. I grew up believing in God, I grew up believing that His son Jesus died on the cross for mankind's sins, and I don't believe that I feel I need to 'do' something to earn God's love. I know the statement is in the Bible somewhere that our 'works', or 'deeds' are like filthy rags to God....that we do NOT 'earn' our way to Him, or to Heaven.

My personal problem came when I realized that Christians are worshiping Jesus as God, and not just as His son. Even in your last message, you stated that from God's perspective, the price was paid by God's son Jesus. I have SUCH difficulty with the Trinity, and am trying very hard to 'understand' it. I would even be happy with a certain acceptance of the Trinity by faith....if it happened.

Some people reading this may be inclined to just tell me to shut up already about it, but....my original post to this forum was in reply to the 'Jealousy of God' thread. And, I am just trying to get this 'right'. I already believe in God......and Jesus......but cannot worship them as the same??? I feel that I am on the verge of something good here, simply by being relentless about learning. And, by the way, if I come away from this site with a new perspective for my faith.....it will be worth the effort.

I have asked Christians......'why do you believe that Jesus is God'? And most of them are quite happy to reply......"I just do", and they go on their merry way. I am not one of those fortunate ones. For whatever reason, my mind is doing battle with this, and causing much grief for my present and future relationship with God.

P.S. Jesus did say "Seek and ye shall find". So, I am seeking. And, I am hoping to find peace with my beliefs in both God and Jesus.

Originally posted by chaney3
I appreciate your response. Because of that, I will 'try' to explain more clearly where I stand. I grew up believing in God, I grew up believing that His son Jesus died on the cross for mankind's sins, and I don't believe that I feel I need to 'do' something to earn God's love. I know the statement is in the Bible somewhere that our 'works', or 'deeds' are l ...[text shortened]... all find". So, I am seeking. And, I am hoping to find peace with my beliefs in both God and Jesus.

chaney3, please give some sustained thought to deciding who among all of the human beings in your life you have acquired the greatest in depth knowledge of and know the most about. Then tomorrow, Friday, May 29, 2015, post a few words without naming names that you've made your decision. Within twenty four hours I'll reply. Thanks.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
chaney3, please give some sustained thought to deciding who among all of the human beings in your life you have acquired the greatest in depth knowledge of and know the most about. Then tomorrow, Friday, May 29, 2015, post a few words without naming names that you've made your decision. Within twenty four hours I'll reply. Thanks.

I don't have a clue what you are talking about. This is exactly what I'm talking about.....if you have something to say about the Jesus/God dilemma that I am admittedly dealing with, then please just say it.....without the 007 mystery. If you have a point regarding how well someone can truly know another person....then I would like to hear it.

Originally posted by chaney3

And, I am just trying to get this 'right'. I already believe in God......and Jesus......but cannot worship them as the same??? I feel that I am on the verge of something good here, simply by being relentless about learning. And, by the way, if I come away from this site with a new perspective for my faith.....it will be worth the effort.

Well, the Lord Jesus did say that the truth would make us free. Perhaps you should have a good talk with God. Ask Him to make clear to you what attitude toward God and Christ leads you to the most freedom.

What frees you, liberates you, especially from sin, that you should learn to follow as the truth.

As for me, definitely my God is the Man Jesus Christ Who lives in me in His form as the Holy Spirit. I don't see one micro ounce of "competition" between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don't see the Father as having His feelings hurt that too much attention is going to Jesus. Nor do I view the Holy Spirit as concerned that the Father and the Son are conspiring to bump Him out of the picture.

Envy, jealousy, competition rivalry, I do not see in any way between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The more I call "O Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus I LOVE You." the happier the Father seems to me.

And the more I call out "Abba Father! Father, my own dear Abba Father!" the more joy I think I bring to the heart of the Son. Even if I cry out "Holy Spirit, I love You" I don't sense at all, nor find any biblical ground, for imagining that the Father and the Son are standing by miffed and complaining "Hey What about US ??"

There is no rivalry among the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is no rivalry but the Three work as one.

What has been helpful to me is to conceive the Father as like the power plant in the distance being the source of the electrical power. And the Son is like the cables connecting the power plant to my home. And the flow of electricity FROM the power plant and OVER the cables is like the Holy Spirit.

The Father is the Source.
The Son is the Course.
The Holy Spirit is the Flow.

In the matter of the power plant, the cables, and the voltage the goal is to bring the electical power from the Source over the Course by the Flow into my home.

And in the matter of the Triune God the goal is to bring God's life from the Source of the Father over the Course of the Son by means of the Flow into my being.

In other words the Trinity in what God is can never be separated from the Trinity in what God does.

I must go right now.
But add thanksgiving and praise along with your musings and inquiry to God Himself about this matter.

Originally posted by chaney3
I don't have a clue what you are talking about. This is exactly what I'm talking about.....if you have something to say about the Jesus/God dilemma that I am admittedly dealing with, then please just say it.....without the 007 mystery. If you have a point regarding how well someone can truly know another person....then I would like to hear it.

"I don't have a clue what you are talking about..." chaney3, of course you don't. Why? Because your impatience has apparently completely misread my request and in doing so blurred the issues. I do know precisely why you're experiencing this doubt as well as its only solution. If and when you calm down and regain your objectivity, we'll resume our conversation.

Footnote: "The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off." -Mal Pancoast

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"I don't have a clue what you are talking about..." chaney3, of course you don't. Why? Because your impatience has apparently completely misread my request and in doing so blurred the issues. I do know precisely why you're experiencing this doubt as well as its only solution. If and when you calm down and regain your objectivity, we'll resume our conversation.

Footnote: "The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off." -Mal Pancoast

Okay, I am intrigued. You know 'why' I have this doubt....and you say that you 'know' the solution. Obviously I am curious. If you read my previous posts, then you know I believe in God.....and Jesus......but I struggle with the Trinity. I hope that your solution is on line with my current beliefs. If I have blurred the issues because of my impatience.....I can admit that. So.....as in chess, I will await the next move.

Originally posted by chaney3
Okay, I am intrigued. You know 'why' I have this doubt....and you say that you 'know' the solution. Obviously I am curious. If you read my previous posts, then you know I believe in God.....and Jesus......but I struggle with the Trinity. I hope that your solution is on line with my current beliefs. If I have blurred the issues because of my impatience.....I can admit that. So.....as in chess, I will await the next move.

Originally posted by chaney3
"My personal problem came when I realized that Christians are worshiping Jesus as God, and not just as His son..."
_________________________

Thanks for the opportunity to continue.

If you're a believer in Christ your "doubt" appears to be caused by 1) a focus on other "Christians" rather than on God's Word [growing in grace by systematic exposure to a pastor's accurate teaching from the original languages and gradually acquiring the mind of Christ]; or 2) your "doubt" stems from a lack of confidence in your eternal security [in your salvation and eternal life]; or 3) your "doubt" relates to some covert or overt sin that shocked you and which you doubt God will ever be able to forgive; or 4) some other real or imagined reason. Whatever the cause, it must first be isolated unemotionally in the privacy of your own mind.

Originally posted by chaney3
Okay, I am intrigued. You know 'why' I have this doubt....and you say that you 'know' the solution. Obviously I am curious. If you read my previous posts, then you know I believe in God.....and Jesus......but I struggle with the Trinity. I hope that your solution is on line with my current beliefs. If I have blurred the issues because of my impatience.....I can admit that. So.....as in chess, I will await the next move.

I get the impression that you learned about God and Jesus from others and never really studied the Holy Bible yourself. It can be helpful to learn the ideas of others, but it is what you believe that is really important. So I would suggest that before you get indoctrinated by other people's ideas that you actually read and study the entire Holy Bible yourself to see what it says to you.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!