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Clans Forum

Clans Forum

  1. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    28 Apr '17 05:48
    Now that the clan leader vote on reforming the clan system is closed, the option which garnered the most favor was 2. Just leave it as it is (Annual net points) and punish any prior unsporting behaviour.

    I have a problem with the punishment clause of option 2. It is ex post facto. In 2016, there was no clear definition of *sandbagging* though many people bandy the word about in the forums, and there was no rule prohibiting it (however it may come to be defined).

    There was also no definition of what constitutes *collusion* (whether it requires any prior arrangement to throw games or whether it just happened spontaneously) and no rule forbidding it.

    Before we go down the road of punishing activities against which there was no rule at the time, I should like a discussion what constitutes *unsporting behavior* and some clear definitions.

    There are some clans which consider it sporting to resign games regardless of board position once a challenge has been decided. Others would call that sandbagging. This practice would get a team disqualified in any FIDE- or USCF-organized team event. It has been tolerated here. Should it be? Or is this something which might at some future time get punished ex post facto?

    A player has denied that his captain ever ordered him to resign a game. This is irrelevant to the issue. As with the collusion issue, it is not about whether someone orders a thing to happen or whether it just happens spontaneously. It is about the deleterious effect it has on the system; the effect is the same regardless whether it is planned, arranged, ordered, or merely spontaneous.

    Is this sporting? Let's have some feedback, what constitutes *sporting*, otherwise we'll all be back here in a year voting on whether something else should be punished ex post facto, ad naseum (sorry for all the Latin).
  2. 28 Apr '17 07:38
    Originally posted by moonbus
    Now that the clan leader vote on reforming the clan system is closed, the option which garnered the most favor was 2. Just leave it as it is (Annual net points) and punish any prior unsporting behaviour.

    I have a problem with the punishment clause of option 2. It is ex post facto. In 2016, there was no clear definition of *sandbagging* though many people ...[text shortened]... on whether something else should be punished ex post facto, ad naseum (sorry for all the Latin).
    As far as I can discern it was termed 'good clan management'. Is it sporting? no its called gaming the system.
  3. Subscriber roma45
    st johnstone
    28 Apr '17 10:03
    Originally posted by moonbus
    Now that the clan leader vote on reforming the clan system is closed, the option which garnered the most favor was 2. Just leave it as it is (Annual net points) and punish any prior unsporting behaviour.

    I have a problem with the punishment clause of option 2. It is ex post facto. In 2016, there was no clear definition of *sandbagging* though many people ...[text shortened]... on whether something else should be punished ex post facto, ad naseum (sorry for all the Latin).
    Just look at any challenge from 2016 between the easy riders against any of the scum sisters then you will understand
  4. 28 Apr '17 17:57
    is it sporting to challenge inactive players over and over because the other clan leader is asleep at the wheel?
    when does getting an edge become unsporting behavior?
    that is why I oppose any sort of punishment
    define your terms before going on this journey of revenge
  5. 28 Apr '17 18:29
    Originally posted by lemondrop
    is it sporting to challenge inactive players over and over because the other clan leader is asleep at the wheel?
    when does getting an edge become unsporting behavior?
    that is why I oppose any sort of punishment
    define your terms before going on this journey of revenge
    Are you trying to draw a line somewhere ?
    Or just muddy it ??

    Clan feature runs not only on the skill of the players, but on the clan leaders as well.
    I have repeated this over numerous times !!

    One clan leader should not be punished for another clan leader's stupidity !!

    But let's draw the line somewhere.
    Clans like Anti-Metallica, Breaking Bad and Arrow setting challenges with Easy Riders over and over again when
    they know there is a 99% chance of losing the challenges is no longer in the realm of stupidity !!

    That is why one topic has dominated this forum for more than a year now !!

    Got it ???

    Russ will look at the evidence provided and make the call.
    And we will live with it.

    My main interest is in getting the current clan table data fixed
    so we can continue using this feature.
  6. 28 Apr '17 19:57
    Originally posted by mghrn55
    Are you trying to draw a line somewhere ?
    Or just muddy it ??

    Clan feature runs not only on the skill of the players, but on the clan leaders as well.
    I have repeated this over numerous times !!

    One clan leader should not be punished for another clan leader's stupidity !!

    But let's draw the line somewhere.
    Clans like Anti-Metallica, Breaking Bad ...[text shortened]... nterest is in getting the current clan table data fixed
    so we can continue using this feature.
    I am simply asking for a line to be drawn
    you like to credit your clan leader as having skill, which he might have, while I see it as skirting the boundaries of fair play
  7. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    29 Apr '17 07:57 / 1 edit
    I would like to see a discussion in the abstract about what sorts of 'skills' a clan leader may apply in a sporting manner, and what sorts of 'skills', if applied, are not sporting, irrespective of which clan leaders might or might not have actually applied them.

    I appreciate that selecting challenges is a time-consuming and difficult task, over and above chess-playing skill.

    No clan leader who is on the level is likely to accept obviously lopsided challenges repeatedly; a clan leader who persistently accepts lopsided challenges is open to suspicion of trying to game the system.

    There are other ways of manipulating the system, for example by attempting to conceal, or minimize the appearance of, lopsidedness. This is a point I wish to discuss, what means are 'sporting' and what means are not acceptable, to try to gain an advantage in offering and accepting challenges.

    Compare to golf, for example: any player who persistently manipulated his handicap would reap scorn from his fellow players. A golf team captain who found a way to manipulate his team member's handicaps would equally reap the scorn of his fellow team captains. Let's suppose, just as a thought experiment, that some golf team captain figured out a way to fiddle his member's handicaps without ever actually telling any of his team members to muff a shot. Would this be acceptable or not, sporting behaviour or not sporting behaviour?

    Shouldn't it be so here, too?
  8. 29 Apr '17 08:07
    Originally posted by mghrn55
    Are you trying to draw a line somewhere ?
    Or just muddy it ??

    Clan feature runs not only on the skill of the players, but on the clan leaders as well.
    I have repeated this over numerous times !!

    One clan leader should not be punished for another clan leader's stupidity !!

    But let's draw the line somewhere.
    Clans like Anti-Metallica, Breaking Bad ...[text shortened]... nterest is in getting the current clan table data fixed
    so we can continue using this feature.
    Is Russ going to look at what has occupied most of the clan discussion or just pay it lip service
    Seems to me he is more concerned with something I personally will never use
    I think the best idea for the clan system is to wind it up as an experiment that went bad